form element without forms - Page 3

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Re: form element without forms

crankypuss wrote:
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   Yeah, me too!

    I've been around for a long time and I add "tricks" as they become

   Some of those things which looked like tricks then are now
mainstream. Like tables, they haven't always been around. And in the css
department, you have well css, and then a whole slew of things I had to
wait for first NS4 to die and then IE5. Even hover was once a trick.

   I still put flash in the tricks category, but it too is now
mainstream and I'll be using a flash image player shortly. I already use
flash music players to sell music. I won't do an all flash site though.

   Generally if it covers the last couple generations of browsers, I'll
use it. Someone 3 generations back will have a lesser experience. When
IE 8 is established, I'll start using attribute selectors and some other

   You gotta move on...

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Well, I'm mostly a programmer. So everything I do is looking to save
time. Often I'll spend a lot of extra time up front so I can spend less
time later.

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Re: form element without forms

crankypuss wrote:
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Designing for LCD may be overkill.  I try to to "optimize" my design for
the 60% in the "middle", allowing the bottom 20% an acceptable
(graceful) degradation, and not trying to ignore the top 20%.  This
formula varies depending on the assumed audience profile. For instance
is it reasonable to think the users are high tech and likely to have the
latest and greatest technology, or just the opposite?

The biggest problem I have with this approach is with clients, who have
been shown the latest possible "bells and whistles" in a demo that has
been optimized for that client's desktop by a competitor.  I can usually
convince them by showing them a "not so graceful" degrading of the site
in a worst case scenario.  I once had a high priced competitor's
production (client) site that displayed 3 of 5 bullet point options
without any indication 2 more existed, and no way of getting to them
even if you knew they were there.

As for JavaScript/!JavaScript, I usually do w/o it, but there are
circumstances where it is more than useful.  Say for example I'm
designing a corporate intranet site that requires some specific
functionality like database access.  I usually have some influence over
the intended user community, and can dictate enabling JavaScript, or
even strongly suggest what browser they use.  In that case it's
no-holds-barred in optimizing to a specific set of hardware and software

Of course this approach is why when I do use JavaScript my skills and
recollections are rusty introducing a whole new set of problems and
considerations (mis-remembered is worse than not remembered at all).

Re: form element without forms

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I don't know AJAX, so implementation difficulty in AJAX is unknown to

What I recall about browser support though, from playing with several
browsers some time back, is that submit buttons generally work outside
of a form, but other types of input are ignored outside of a form.
Whether their working should be taken to imply "support" in any formal
sense is another matter.

I think the easiest method of creating tabular data that allows the
detailed editing of an indivual cell's content might be to put the
entire table within a single form and put a submit button marked "edit
cell" (or whatever name you like) within each cell.  If a default
button is too large for your taste, I believe you can specify an image
for the button.

I'm not certain of all the things you might be able do in terms of
using an image map button as the cell's background, but if appearance
is a huge issue it might be worth exploring.

Anyway when you click the cell's submit button, the cell content could
then be replaced by the appropriate editing paraphenalia.  I would not
use a second (inner) form for the cell editing controls because only
the data associated with the form containing the submit button is
sent, so if the cell was an inner form containing inputs and a submit
button, any data the user typed into fields in the outer form would
not be sent and that could be a usability issue.

From another point of view, it doesn't sound as if you want to let the
user change data in the cell prior to clicking the "edit" button, you
just want to use a button there for appearance?  In that case you
might be better off just using an image link with no form at all until
the user has chosen to edit the cell.

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