The End Of Google PR?

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It looks like the future holds the key to the end of google's page rank
system from the new technology about to burst out on the internet very
soon. It's already been around and being used for some years now, just
as blogs have been around way before they became popular the past year
or so with the general public.

But there is another type of website, in fact a number of different ones
that start where RSS and blogs leave off. In this new technology web
sites are completely interactive. In other words I can go to someone
else's website and create my own pages at their website that will link
back and forth to their index page. So for example if I create pages at
a website that has a pr8 for their index page my pages within a few
months will automatically generate a pr6 or maybe even a pr7 without
doing anything.

This technology already exists and is being used right now by many
people. It seems to me when this technolgy becomes very popular with the
general public, as blogs are now, page rank becomes a thing of the past
as anybody can get high page rank quite easily with these new types of
websites just by finding high pr ones and doing their pages at it. If
you think page rank is easy to get now with posting to places such as
guestbooks, memberlists, blog comments ect you aint seen nothing yet
until you've seen some of these new super interactive websites. I really
just found out about them recently and have pretty much abandoned
guestbooks, blog comments, memberlists in favor of them.

Anyway with coming age of these new super sites I give google's page
rank system about one more year and it's history because page rank just
won't work unless they won't a search engine full of no content sites
which I don't think they want to do.

Anybody here know what type of sites I'm talking about? Just curious if
I'm the only one who knows. I'm not about to give it out as it has
really made posting a lot easier for me the past few days. Eventually
you'll all find out anyway so just hang in there and if you hate the
page rank system fear not it's on it's way out...

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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Ummmm... a guestbook with a "latest entries" list on the front page?

Re: The End Of Google PR?

Sounds like someone has discovered Wiki,
but can't make the conceptual leap to see
that it will follow the same trajectory as
any other link spamming schemes.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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I got a bit of a buzz out of adding a page describing an uber-obscure early
80s synth duo from my home town Northampton, Georgi Markov's Empire, to
Wikipedia, and then wondered if this was abusing the technology or not; it
was a genuine entry and I endeavoured to be as accurate as possible, but
then I thought, what if everybody does this? Wikipedia will become bigger
than the planet earth! I thought.

Apparently now people are filling it up with spam as well.

At least I was trying to share information, however obscure :(

Is there no editing of Wiki? Isn't it certain to fill with drek, if not?


A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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The original design of Wiki servers was absolutely
wide-open, intentionally. Anyone could arrive and
do anything, including just delete all the existing
entries. It actually worked great until the inevitable
"one bad apple" effect arose.

The next Wiki lifestage was adding backup or versioning,
so evil-doer's work can be quickly rolled back. At that
point, you have a system that, while mostly wide-open,
is safe enough to use for things like an internal company

Some people extend Wiki to include things like
review-before-publish features, making it more of
a classic content management system. Of course,
this violates the initial Wiki premise, which is that
being wide-open is what attracts heavy participation.

In the specific case of the Wiki-pedia, volunteers
manually go around and clean up the crud left
by evildoers. Unfortunately, human nature dictates
that the evildoers will escalate to the point where
manual solutions no longer work. It will be less
easy to contribute to Wiki's everywhere,
Google may do an algorithm tweak to detect
and ignore Wiki's, the world will be a worse
place, and life goes on.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

 You got it right Wiki is one of the type of newer websites I was
reffering to. But there's something even newer than Wiki I believe it's
called something like 'Super RSS' if I remember correctly. It has the
look of a blog using CSS formating done like a wiki but can't be deleted
by anyone except the site owner. My guess is Google will buy it and
replace blogspot with it in time probably within the next year or two.

 The move is towards more and more interaction at websites which is
pretty much the whole principle of the internet and the web in general.
Evenetually we'll all be able to reach into the monitor and shake hands.
No telling what that will do for sex sites on the net.

 But I think it will put an end to the google page ranking system as
anybody can easily get a high pr page being at someone's high pr site
without having any link popularity of their own and the whole google
algo is based purely on link popularity. Page rank is just a measure of
it but I can't see it working anymore when Super RSS, Wiki and future
more interactive sites take over in the next few years.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

Sammmm wrote:
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*If* they do. One thing about the web is that history shows that today's
fashion rapidly becomes yesterday's news. You don't have to be very old to
remember when "portals" were the groovy, happening, with-it thing.

Wiki type sites are only useful for collation of information by individuals
contributing to a knowledgebase. Interactivity is a fabulous buzz-word, and
everybody always presumes that an "interactive" version of a thing must be
better than a non-interactive one. In fact tho, very few things work very
well interactively. I remember a while back seeing Terry Pratchett asked on
TV about "interactive novels"; his reply- "they probably won't take off for
the same reason we don't have interactive dentistry". What he went on to
expound was basically the reason we have professionals (e.g. professional
novelists) is that they are presumably better at what they do than most
other people. Is an encyclopaedia entry written by Some Bloke With A Modem
as trustworthy as one written by an accredited expert in the field he's
writing about?

Anyway, I'm just sayint that wikis will have a place, but are unlikely to
"take over".

A quality online comic strip for the discerning reader.
With shagging in it.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

Jaxtraw wrote:
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Wiki's will never take over because they are not capable of doing that.
They are just the very first primative step in that direction.
Eventually the technology will exist that will take over and do what
wiki's can't do.

As far as interactiveness and the net go I disagree with you. That's was
and is the whole point of being on the internet otherwise we might as
well just go back to watching the TV and being couch potatos. The future
of everything especially in entertainment and the arts will be
interactive. In a 100 years from now and probably less there won't be
movie stars and rocks stars and all that nonsense but the average person
will be a star and art and entertainment will be created by the average
person participating in it and not just observing and watching somebody
else do it. The 20th century was the age of inactivity and the age of
stars where the average person just watched somebody else doing
something. It's why people are so appathetic thse days and that's all
going to go the complete other direction again in the future.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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If a person is sitting for hours in front of the PC [even if being
"interactive" in chat rooms or web sites] then how much unlike a couch
potato is that person? Not very - they just aren't watching TV.

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It was? Perhaps you need to look back through what advances occured in
the 1900's before saying it was "age of inactivity" ... it was
actually a very productive age, even before the internet was opened to
the general public's access [outside of BBS thoughts but IRC and the
Web opened up].

And - given how more and more kids are sitting for hours in front of
the PC playing games and hanging out in chat rooms and such - they are
less active than some of their own [older] cousins were at the same
age around 10 years back in time. So the internet is helping to
inspire inactivity versus activity among people?

Interactivity online is not a substitute - a panacea of sorts maybe
for some but not a substitute for actually getting up from in the
computer desk and getting out mingling with real people or sitting in
the audience watching [and appreciating] some genuine raw talent being
displayed by another person.

As each new gimmick is rolled out - some sites quickly jump on it and
ride it for what's it worth; most of those site owners will admit that
they will ride it for what it's worth only because they don't feel it
will hold people's interest long [in terms of years that is - but may
work for a few months].

Look at your own posts in this thread - you shared how you used
guestbooks, blog comment areas, and membership lists in the past [and
recently as it wasn't long ago you shared a post about a PR6
membership list url] to boost your site's PR ... Although I never
understood why search engines indexed guestbook pages or forum
membership lists into being part of the results shared for search
terms to begin with since a large majority of those were really
nothing worth noting/indexing in my opinion *shrug*

Now, in this thread, you shared that you are moving onto something
viewed as "fresh" "exciting" and [possibly] ripe for exploiting to
some degree [for now]. As mentioned - it is only a matter of time
before some site owners will curb the use of their site's resources.
Some bloggers got fed up with people using their blog's comments areas
as a "nifty url sharing resource" as the "just surfed in" guestbook
signers tried to do on guestbooks before - and now there are ways to
curb those abuses of those comment areas to make them less attractive
for the drive by URL sharers ... so how long before the "super rss
feed" folks will start trying to figure out how to not share PR or
having those link sharings left in people's wake counting for much of
anything if at all?  Or, with Will's post about "blocked PR sites",
how long before Google "blocks PR" from those "feed sites" to thwart
"manipulation thoughts"?

First it was this favored ... then that ... no, wait, now it is link
popularity ... whoops, hold on, its this PR thingie now ... ut oh -
looks like link popularity with PR3+ favored ... uhm, wait, now it's
link popularity with PR4+ sites favored ... news flash - its links
from PR4+ sites that are close in theme/topic to yours ... no, hold
on, scratch that as it is anchor text being favored now ... as Linda
Ellerbee would say "and so it goes ..."

And - for all we know right now - the web thing could be just a fad
and in another 10 years be waning in the allure it has had for the
past 10 years with the general public ... or it may begin a backward
trend of less razzle dazzle but more information being shared between
sites/people online; so people not wanting more and more interactivity
of the entertainment level as they will get that enterntainment
offline ... .

Who knows - will have to wait and see.


Re: The End Of Google PR?

C.W. wrote:
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We're not talking about doppy chat rooms and worse yet games which can
be done offline...
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The only interactive art form of the 20th century was radio prior to the
1960's where people actually had to use their imagination. Don't get me
wrong I love the movies and even some of the better TV shows and they
ahve their place. But becoming interactive is the wave of the future and
what will make the human race go forward in its evolution.
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Again you're getting it all wrong when you talk about kids playing games
online and chat room which are just a tiny part of the internet and what
it's used for. Where the internet is moving towards is a place where
individual average every day people can actually participate for example
in a movie and direct or be one of the characters or write the screen
play rather than sitting in some dark theater or watching the tube and
watching somebody else doing it for them. In the future it won't be
stars that create art and music, and literature so much as it will be
eveyone together who do it. That doesn't mean there won't be Van Goghs,
and Dickens, and all the great artists but that it will be a lot more
than that and not only that. Watching, listening isn't a bad thing and
can be a great thing but not when it's the only thing. Right now people
feel utterly powerless to have any real effect on the world and with the
internet they can have real power and say in the world. That's what the
internet or whatever it evolves into will do for humanity and it will be
because of it's power of interactiveness and people becoming
participants. As WS said "We are all just the actors in a play". In the
second half of the 20th century people stopped showing up for the
performance but all that is about to change and go back to the way it
used to be when people actually read books and used their minds before
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Google and other search engines use and need guestbooks, blog comments,
memberlists ect to help them index new sites into their data centers
since most sites will not exchange links with new sites and that is a
fact not an opinion.
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Google always changes the algorithm favoring one or two things over
another and that is normal. A fully optimized site is fully optimized
for all the possible known algorithms and doesn't waver when the algo
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My guess is virtual reality will take it's place (even more interactive
than the net) or they may merge into one new thing.

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Re: The End Of Google PR?

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I only shared a couple of examples of _current_ "interactivity"
thoughts possible online in terms of present thoughts.

You said: "As far as interactiveness and the net go I disagree with
you. That's was and is the whole point of being on the internet
otherwise we might as well just go back to watching the TV and being
couch potatos."

My slightly revised comment in response:
If a person is sitting for hours in front of the PC then how much
unlike a couch potato is that person? Not very - they just aren't
watching TV.

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Automobiles became a norm versus a luxury [Model T helped to make that
possible] - which later inspired indy car, stock car, and nascar
racing circuits; let alone having travel itself not be "limiting" but
also quicker in some aspects.
Air travel
Talking movies * including newsreels that helped bring "active" news
clips to people's eyes.
Television appeared in the 40's I beleive but didn't come to 1 per
household thoughts, in the States, until the later 50's/early 60's.

You stated, and I quote, "The 20th century was the age of inactivity
and the age of stars where the average person just watched somebody
else doing something." Nothing wrong with that - you make it sound
like such a negative while dismissing how watching others helped some
of those "watchers" become inspired ... and some of those people
taking the initiative to see if they can do it also [if not better].

Not everyone is cut out to be an actor or rock musician - even in
imaginary settings. Let alone that some people are not cut out for
politics. Average folks are just as important in society as "public
figures" are.

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I am talking about *now* versus trying to create an imaginary thought
of what it *may be* like 50 to 100 years from now. Recall it was like
in the 1940's that some people predicted by year 2000 that we would
all be driving in hovercraft-type vehicles versus automobiles with
tires. You may be right in your prediction ... but you may also be
wrong and the concepts you are speaking about may only be a fad that
comes and goes; flash in the pan type thing.

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You said prior: "In a 100 years from now and probably less there won't
be movie stars and rocks stars and all that nonsense but the average
person will be a star and art and entertainment will be created by the
average person participating in it and not just observing and watching
somebody else do it."

Now you say there will be - just mixed in with these "interactive
created" ones [why is this sounding like a warped Sims game module or
just a twist to RPG to me as reading these thoughts?]
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Please - you make it sound more negative than what it really is ...  

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... and you have gone totally to left field.

People who are apathetic are apathetic because they want to be that
way - look at election day and see how many voluntarily don't get up
off their butt to go vote and "have a say" or share their opinion even
through that act alone.

Giving them a PC or some nifty device and saying "here - you can do
this that and this and be interactive" is ... well, kinda defeating
the purpose of the thought you are trying to share. You are trying to
say people are content sitting on their butts because of other
technology [television] or feeling they "can't" [due to being
apathetic or whatever] - but saying another form of technology will
correct that even without the person leaving the house?

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Some due to their own choosing. Internet or hi-tech interactivity may
not change the fact that some people will "not show up". But I agree,
to an extent, if people are spending more time at home in front of a
device [be it TV or the PC] and expecting that to be their focal
source of entertainment - then they may not show up at the theater
down the street to watch some actors perform in a William Shakespeare

To me the latter [seeing the actors performing the play] may be better
option; but you seem to feel the person sitting at home scripting
themself into the play through their PC or some hi-tech program is
better choice?

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Nothing, not even television, stopped the people from using their
minds. At least it didn't it in my household *points over shoulder to
6 bookcases overflowing with books then points to television set in
one corner*. My children also have 1 to 2 bookcases apiece in their
bedrooms filled with books that they have read. I also encourage them
to get out of the house and mingle with people versus trying to have
the home as their focal source of any entertainment or whatever.  

Not saying I raised the next rock icon, movie star, or President of
the United States but we do more than sit on our butts in front of the
TV or PC and expect those resources to provide us 'entertainment' or
"interactivity" thoughts - even when we lived in a town with a
population of 350. But I can't say the television had them become
apathetic or content sitting on their butts watching the world pass
them by either.

I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree about some things.

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And blog owners used to have URLs in the comment areas indexed/PR
passed along ... now many have a choice and don't have to. It isn't
just algorithems that change but some other elements that can affect
how the algorithem affects a particular site - as the site lost some
of those nifty cool PR level blog comments counting their way.  

You also said one can overwrite someone's entry on these "new things"
you claim to be shifting focus to on URL sharing thoughts ... and, in
some settings, that site owners cannot edit things shared by others
.... but *for how long* before someone comes up with a way to help
prevent those thoughts from being misused by others and urls are
shared similarly to how they are on mirrored sites carrying usenet
posts [text only]?  

Part of the allure of RSS feed is that it can be shared through other
people's sites - to help bring traffic to the one site where the RSS
feed originated from ... but if those other sites are seeing spammed
URLs or adult content themes showing up, which will not always be
"cool content" shared through some sites even if in a RSS feed, how
long - seriously - before someone figures out a way to censor some
activity/misuse by others?

You said that guestbooks, blog comment areas, and membership lists are
a thing of the past in terms of URL sharing thoughts and this wiki or
super RSS is the NOW method to use for that purpose ... now you say
that "search engines use and need" those, even though they were - when
coming down to brass tacks of "information shared" worthless links on
results pages even if PR6 or such in thoughts - due to "most sites
will not exchange links with new sites" as the reason. I just don't
see why such a page would land on page 1 or even page 5 of the results
... hence my comment about why those things are even indexed at all to
show up in the results listings for phrases other than "guestbook" or
"membership list".

If people spam their URLs through super RSS areas ... then that will
risk it becoming just as worthless as a membership list is in value to
web surfers ... except, of course, for those sharing those links in
some area to plug the URL as a place to go to and join based on PR
thoughts alone for that page [quickie PR boost thoughts but not due to
the forum itself being of interest to those joining to get their URLs
listed off that membership listing]. Just my opinion though.


Couch Potato

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Hey! I am an expensive ergonomic chair potato, not a couch potato!

Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager.

Re: Couch Potato

On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:01:28 -0700, Guy Macon
< wrote:

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*sputters on sip of coffee* Now that's a first for me ... an ergonomic


Re: The End Of Google PR?

C.W. wrote:
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I think we're talking about two different things here;

I'm talking about mental participation not physical participation and
you seem to be talking about interacting physically. No one interacts
physically with a computer unless they're moving it to another room or
bringing one home from the store ect.

I was talking about mental interaction, the mind, not the body, being a
participant in the thing they are watching and not just sitting back and
watching only like you do when you watch a movie or television ect.

With movies and television everything bounces off the screen at you
(your mind not body) but nothing bounces back to the movie or tv show
you're watching.

With the web or net whatever you prefer, the bouncing happens in both
directions and you interact with it mentally. That's the whole point of
the internet and why it was created in the first place. There will
always be strides in technology to make it always more and more
interactive so that the viewer becomes even more of a participant in
what's happening at the site that you happen to be at.

With Television and the movies there is no interaction and the viewer is
only a viewer or a voyeur and can not participate in what they are
seeing and hearing and feeling.

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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You been talking to your Hawaiian friends again ;o)

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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I never used the above methods [guestbooks, blog comments,
memberlists] for site promotion or as an "seo" method to begin with. I
joined a couple of online web forums but the profile page for my
userID doesn't share an URL to any of my sites.

I got a site to a PR6 before November of 2003 simply by sharing
content through the site, submitting to directories, and other people
voluntarily linking to that site. It has been #1 for a particular
search phrase for 3 years now.

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What about Yahoo coming out with a WPR or something like that in
initials? Apparently Yahoo doesn't feel that this "knowing how a site
is ranked on a scale of 1 to 10" curiousity is going away anytime
soon. Although, since it isn't really shared how that will be used by
Yahoo ... I hope it isn't like the old GeoCities "ranking" within
categories that Yahoo tried once right after they acquired GeoCities -
that was a dismal failure in terms of the user's perspective.

And - what about when those "interactive sites" starts curbing some
activity to hinder those wishing to abuse their resources [getting a
link from their main page and that link helping your site's PR ... let
alone content thoughts] -- just like some bloggers did?

Not saying PR is no longer a factor - that has been stated on here and
other places, for several months now, about PR no longer being a
primary thought in terms of how your site will rank. Doesn't mean it
still isn't fun seeing your site move up a notch in PR thoughts but so
many people have placed more importance on that thought even while
Google has shown they, the search engine, was not placing heavy
importance thoughts on PR at all but middle of the road or low end of
the scale in importance for SERPs thoughts.

To me it is just a guide for my own observation and hinting about how
I am doing on improving my site ... but then recall I didn't use any
of the other methods you mentioned above so my PR achievement
isn't/wasn't based on how many places I signed up at or how many
places I hit to leave a comment or two [let alone using interactive
sites] - so if PR goes away from the algorithem used by Google's
search engine, my SERP may remain the same based on other factors I
employed for my site other than PR? I mean my PR6 site lands on page 1
of Yahoo, MSN, AskJeeves, et al for the same search term that it lands
on page 1 of Google and those other places don't give a rat's tuckus
about my Google PR.

Once other people start noticing the "lesser importance from Google's
side" trend then the allure of other sites' PR, in terms of paying for
a link from it or trying to have link exchange rules or such thoughts,
will also start to relax and less money trading hands trying to build
up a PR. I mean when you have people advertising their PR or
auctioning it off on eBay just to get someone to pay for a link
placement ... then you know Google is going to notice and get a giggle
out of it too, in a way.

But I personally think PR is just a visual tool nowadays that is
provided by Google on the toolbar for the curious site owner ... and
primarily used within Google's directory in terms of "placement"
thoughts. When you have PR4 sites beating out PR5 or PR6 sites in the
search engine SERPs then that should be a clue on the value of PR on
that side of Google's application of it in their search engine's

Just my 2 cents though


Re: The End Of Google PR?

Sam wrote:
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Wiki ! Wiki ! Wiki !

Want to spend holidays in France ? Check /

Re: The End Of Google PR?

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I disagree. from what i gather about these sites you talk about, you would
have to sign up and then spend time making a page. To make it worthwhile you
would have to do this at a whole load of these sites (and i have yet to see
one - unless ur talking about m'boards or something), which would take a
long time.
if the purpose of these sites is published on the sites, then they will of
course get banned by google. not to mention the fact that if all these sites
consist of are 100s of pages made by other webmasters, the site is going to
look ugly and be of absolutely no use to anyone - so who is going to link to
it in the first place?

I do think google is going to change quite a lot in the coming months
though, as it is being abused by everyone - IMO not the fault of google but
the fault of those who enjoy abusing things. tho I suspect it is going to
become more fuzzy, and rely more on AI techniques, meaning it will be much
harder to abuse it using methods such as above. Having good content and
genuine inbound links (which you will get naturally from good content) will
be all that matters, meaning those who have had a good heart all these years
and kept the faith will eventually be the ones smiling. and those here for a
quick buck will have to become genuine or die.

Pete :)

Re: The End Of Google PR?

Sam, here is something very relevant that I've watched over the past year and
which culminated in Yahoo and Google pulling back the reins.

There's this one site (pretty popular) on which you pay to post your photos and
create albums with plenty of accompanying text (in html as well) and such. I'd
been part of it for almost a year and was always pleased to see how my albums
ranked in the top 5 at Google and even recently at Yahoo. For say: XYZ City
Photos, XYZ City Landmark Pics...etc, etc., etc.....

Well, with this I was also able to insert links to my own sites (within reason)
so's to help promote them. WELL, very recently, Yahoo and Google both stopped
putting high importance on these pages at this site. I've asked the owners and
they say they've not made any changes whatsoever. The site's pages are still
being indexed of course and you can still find my own albums at the site, BUT,
their rankings and everyone else's at Y! & G have dropped considerably and
stayed there for over a month now.

THUS, perhaps they might take the same approach with the sort of thing you've
mentioned in the future?

Re: The End Of Google PR?

LuDi790 wrote:
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I think I know what photo albums you're talking about and I never
thought about checking the pr of those. Just out of curiousity what were
thr pr of those sites for you when they were doing good?

What I'm talking about though is a little different then something like
photo albums that you have to pay for. I'm talking about a time when all
websites will have the potential to be interactive and it wouldn't cost
anything to do this. It would work just like a wiki site where you can
edit pages of someone elses sites and add your links but it couldn't be
deleted by just anyone as a wiki page can. They're working on something
like that right now and it should be out for the general public in the
next year or so. If you want to see what a wiki is like just type into
google search /wiki/ and thousands will come up for you to check out.
Look for the 'Edit' link at the bottom of the pages of the wiki sites
and click on it. That will bring up the editor and then you can
completely remove everything on the page and replace it with your links
and then click Save on top of page and take a look at the refreshed
page. Anybody can of course go in and remove your links and then put
their own so for seo purposes a wiki isn't anything to excited about.
Also many wiki's reset back to the origional page and it happens
automatically. The ones that don't set back are okay if you need
temporary links for a few weeks or a month, that is if nobody else
stumbles onto the one you edit at.

Anyway eventually people will be able to edit and it won't be able to be
removed by anyone else except the owner of the site. When that happens
it's going to greatly effect the page rank system and bring in a massive
amount of irrelevant results so I see the page rank system going down at
some point in the future. It's also been down graded by google now
because of the spam posting sites do to get higher pr. You've probably
noticed that many memberlists, blog comment sites, guestbooks, linklists
have gone way done in pr the past couple of months. But for the
experienced SEO this is a plus not a minus. My sites haven't wavered one
bit even though I've lost some pr due to the sites I posted at losing
pr. Hasn't effected me because there's more than one way to seo and when
one way stops working another way starts working better.

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