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## Re: Bootstrap PR?

No, with 100 pages and no incoming links you'd be lucky to create a

PR2 home page. 100 pages carries very little intrinsic PR.

What you can do though is maximise any benefit from your incoming

links to your most important pages by creating a hierarchy of links

through your site.

Your home page should be the most important page and target the

hardest phrase. Link to it from every page on the site (using the

hardest phrase as anchor text).

The second level would be a small number of important pages (less than

a dozen) that also have a link from every page.

The next level is linked from the second level pages, but not from

every page on the site. You can create page clusters of related level

3 pages, where say ten highly related pages link to each other, so

they benefit from the related anchor text.

If you have a large site you might have another level of deeper pages

that are linked from the third level.

This arrangement looks a little like a pyramid with the home page at

the top and the least important pages at the bottom. What this does is

concentrate PR to your most important pages at the expense of the less

important pages. Larger the site, better this works.

If done correctly there can be multiple PR points between the home

page and the deepest pages.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

SEO Dave wrote:

Internal pages can not give a site pagerank no matter how many of them

there are or no matter what the linking structure consists of hierarchy

or lowerarchy nor can they in any way increase pagerank. If anything

having a lot of pages if not done right can cause pr leakage and in my

opinion it's the pr leakage within the internal pages when there are a

lot of them that causes a site to be removed from google which certain

people around here view as a ban for naughty postings they think they've

done.

The one and only, SEO, reason for creating internal pages (lets say

50-100) would be for anchor text reasons for the link back to your

homepage. Creating over 100 is overkill and a waste of time. Most of the

benefits from anchor text backlinks must come from outside sources

either real link exchanging or spamming.

Pagerank comes from having a backlink to your site at sites that have

pagerank and it's the only way you're going to get it. To maximize your

pagerank look for sites with hardly any other backlinks on them. PR is

divided up by the number of links on a page. So if you have the only

backlink at a pr6 site it will be a stronger backlink than if you were

one of a million on a pr10 site.

Internal pages can not give a site pagerank no matter how many of them

there are or no matter what the linking structure consists of hierarchy

or lowerarchy nor can they in any way increase pagerank. If anything

having a lot of pages if not done right can cause pr leakage and in my

opinion it's the pr leakage within the internal pages when there are a

lot of them that causes a site to be removed from google which certain

people around here view as a ban for naughty postings they think they've

done.

The one and only, SEO, reason for creating internal pages (lets say

50-100) would be for anchor text reasons for the link back to your

homepage. Creating over 100 is overkill and a waste of time. Most of the

benefits from anchor text backlinks must come from outside sources

either real link exchanging or spamming.

Pagerank comes from having a backlink to your site at sites that have

pagerank and it's the only way you're going to get it. To maximize your

pagerank look for sites with hardly any other backlinks on them. PR is

divided up by the number of links on a page. So if you have the only

backlink at a pr6 site it will be a stronger backlink than if you were

one of a million on a pr10 site.

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Sam is right (gasp!)

The site's total PageRank is determined by inbound links (since the initial

PageRank per page is very low).

So the more pages you spread your site's PageRank on, the lower PageRank each

page will have.

If you want high PR site - all you have to do is to delete all pages that don't

have IBL's.

That's probably why all of Sam's 76 sites are single-pagers.

Not quite, Sam. You should have left while you were ahead :-)

--

/Martin Hagstrøm

www.PageRank.dk

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Again you show your lack of understanding of PR.

Wrong. Every page has a very small amount of intrinsic PR and so a

single link from a new page does increase PR. Where do you think all

the PR comes from, the tooth fairy!!

The problem is one link from a new page is like adding a single drop

of water to a half filled swimming pool, you don't see a benefit, but

PR has increased. Or do you still believe adding a links from a PR3

page doesn't increase PR as well?

Add a million links from new pages and it's like adding a million

drops of water to a swimming pool, you see a difference, but the

difference is no where near the same as adding multiple high PR links

from external sources. A PR 1 link is like adding a cup of water, PR2

a bucket, PR3 a bath full, PR4 1/4 of a swimming pool, PR5 over a

swimming pool, etc....

With my 50,000 plus pages without incoming links I know I'd be hard

pushed to get a page above a low PR5.

Rubbish. If you start with a PR6 home page and no internal pages and

add ten thousand pages with say 20 linked from the PR6 home page and

they then link to the others (hierarchy) the home page will still be

PR6. If you also add a link to the home page from the new pages PR

will also increase a small amount.

If the original PR6 home page used to link to say 20 external pages

and now links to 20 external and 20 internal, those 20 external pages

will now get half as much PR as they received previously. So those

pages will loose PR.

Starting with a PR6 home page that already links to 20 internal pages

which links back to the home page. If you then add 10,000 more pages

and link them in the same way as before (from the 20 pages) the PR of

the home page may drop to PR5. It might stay PR6, but it's PR will

reduce since the PR originally returned from the 20 internal pages are

now mostly shared to the new 10,000 pages.

If you understand this, you understand how PR works in the real world

and how adding new pages is both good and bad, but overall it's good.

If only you understood PR you'd also understand the relative

difference between internal and external links. There is a difference,

but not what you think.

Change that to "Increasing Pagerank significantly comes from....." and

remove "and it's the only way you're going to get it" and I agree with

you.

BTW Sam interesting what is happening at the Phone Sex SERP. I'm

seeing your main site getting knocked off by a deleted free site

(redirects to http://www.freehomepages.com/missing.php )!! Also that

PR4 Phone Sex FAQ page is in the top 3 again and several over low PR

pages.

It's not looking good for you long term, should I be expecting an

email from you begging for help again. LOL

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

SEO Dave wrote:

Impossible. Proove it! Do a new site with a million pages if you like

and don't have even one single outside external link to the site and the

site will remain pr0. You can't have pr without external links. Internal

pages do not add any pr to a site only external. So prrove yourself and

do a new site with as many pages as you like and have no external links

and we'll see who is right and who is wrong and who knows about pr and

who doesn't.

I'm doing great at phone sex and right now have 5 sites on page one and

5 on page two. You only wish you were doing as good. The freehomepages

site was the pcpages site and someone turned it into their abuse dept

and I wonder who might have done that David.

Impossible. Proove it! Do a new site with a million pages if you like

and don't have even one single outside external link to the site and the

site will remain pr0. You can't have pr without external links. Internal

pages do not add any pr to a site only external. So prrove yourself and

do a new site with as many pages as you like and have no external links

and we'll see who is right and who is wrong and who knows about pr and

who doesn't.

I'm doing great at phone sex and right now have 5 sites on page one and

5 on page two. You only wish you were doing as good. The freehomepages

site was the pcpages site and someone turned it into their abuse dept

and I wonder who might have done that David.

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Sam, did you actually read what I wrote???

I said with no incoming links I'd be hard pushed to get a reasonable

PR (PR5) from 50,000 pages. That is saying PR from new pages is so

insignificant that 50,000 pages is unlikely to make a PR5 page. In

other words a good PR6 link can likely beat 10s of thousands of links

from new pages in terms of PR.

I didn't do the calculation, so I could be wrong on the exact PR of

50,000 pages (then there is how you link it altogether), but it would

in theory create a home page with a PR higher than 0 (I estimate PR4,

but this is a guess since I can't be bothered working out what 50,000

pages can do).

The problem with the above is to be found and indexed in Google you

need incoming links. So if someone created a million page site with no

links to it, it's highly unlikely it would be indexed. What's more

important than this is the fact Google indexes pages based on the PR

of links to it. So a million page site with no links to it, wouldn't

get many of it's pages indexed even if Google could find it.

So to get a million page site indexed, it would need links, a lot of

links.

If you want to come up with a test that doesn't fail on the points

above feel free.

So you believe PR only comes from external links, so a link from an

internal page transfers no PR, in other words a new page has no

intrinsic PR?

Please explain to us all then where all the PR originates from in the

first place??

I understand now why you say internal pages are only useful for anchor

text. You've just proved to me you know a lot less than I thought you

did!!

Lets see, you have ONE SERP that gives you a finite amount of traffic

(well under 500 visitors a day, probably less than 100), I have

hundreds of SERPs that account for thousands of visitors a day. My

literature site received approx. 2500 unique visitors a day in July.

LOL, you must feel real stupid getting a free home page to the top and

then loosing it to something like that. Made my day when I saw it.

Well done to whoever put the abuse report(s) in, I'll gladly take the

credit if no one else will, I can brag about getting one of your sites

deleted then :-))

BTW I have decided to make an effort to get in the top 10 for the

Phone Sex SERP since it's probably the easiest way to shut you up, see

you soon.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

SEO Dave wrote:

Well if you're thinking forums like your classic one (real origional

thinking there on your part) I already registered all the good

usernames) and pcpages I'd just get you deleted like you did mine but

good luck anyway old chap.

Hey did you ever see the movie A Fish Called Wanda? "You English are

just sooo pompous, you think you're so superior"! I love when Keven

Kline says that! Cracks me up.

psps-again 50,000 million internal pages will not boost your pr to your

index page and it's super overkill on anchor boost. Try this create a

site and do let's say 10 good pr4 links that you own to get listed in

google and get it to a pr4 or at least a pr3 and then wait a couple of

months till the site gets a pr3-4 and settles down and then add 50,000

pages and I guarantee you the pr will not go up.

Well if you're thinking forums like your classic one (real origional

thinking there on your part) I already registered all the good

usernames) and pcpages I'd just get you deleted like you did mine but

good luck anyway old chap.

Hey did you ever see the movie A Fish Called Wanda? "You English are

just sooo pompous, you think you're so superior"! I love when Keven

Kline says that! Cracks me up.

psps-again 50,000 million internal pages will not boost your pr to your

index page and it's super overkill on anchor boost. Try this create a

site and do let's say 10 good pr4 links that you own to get listed in

google and get it to a pr4 or at least a pr3 and then wait a couple of

months till the site gets a pr3-4 and settles down and then add 50,000

pages and I guarantee you the pr will not go up.

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Unless you have evidence that Google changed the basis of the originally

published PR formula, I am going to have to side with Sam on this one.

Remember, PR is meant to represent the chances that a surfer would come

across a site by following a path of random links.

In short, an island would never be discovered, In fact a continent would

never be discovered. Unless, someone had been there before and had left a

trace of it in the form of a link.

No inbound links from a site in the Google DB, no PR.

There is no such thing as "intrinsic PR".

Where do I think PR comes from? I think it is calculated by a formula that

begins with a "seed" site. What is the seed? The Google directory, which

last time I checked was PR 10. Everything starts there, Dave. That is why a

DMOZ listing is so important. DMOZ -> G Directory. Let the crawl begin....

John Merrell

Gateway Farm Alpacas

http://www.gateway-alpacas.com

Alpaca, a natural elegance...

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Gateway Farm wrote:

Google gives PR to every new page indexed (a tiny amount), as per the

formula. If its in the index, it can be "found".

If this value is 0.01 PR , then thousands of internal linked pages could

increase the centrally linked pages PR significantly

The arguement about creating PR without any actual initial incoming links

depends on whether you count the initial "submit page" as a weak link

or not.

--

Mike

Google gives PR to every new page indexed (a tiny amount), as per the

formula. If its in the index, it can be "found".

If this value is 0.01 PR , then thousands of internal linked pages could

increase the centrally linked pages PR significantly

The arguement about creating PR without any actual initial incoming links

depends on whether you count the initial "submit page" as a weak link

or not.

--

Mike

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Google only gives pr to every page it indexes because you can't get a

page indexed without any pr.

If that were the case then someone like Dave who says he has 55,000

pages all pointing to his index page should have at least a pr7 for his

index page and his pr is only 6 and it's 6 because his 6 or so blogsites

are pr6 that point to his index page of his site. So what you're saying

doesn't wash.

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

I did the calculation (with a PR calculator that uses base 6) and

50,000 pages has a total PR value similar to a single link from an

average PR6 page with just 1 link from it.

So if you could somehow get 50,000 new pages indexed with no external

links and pointed them all at a single home page and no other pages

(so just one link from every page), it would most likely be a low to

average PR6 page.

As I said before this is unrealistic, Google doesn't index pages

without links to them and pages have more than one link from them

(mine tend to have about 20).

I estimate the real world example of my literature site when all the

pages are fully indexed (which they aren't yet) if the site had no

external links to it, but maintained the same link structure the home

page would be a PR4 at best.

As I said before the amount of intrinsic PR a new page creates is so

small 50,000 pages isn't worth a few good links from external sites.

Info about the PR calculator.

The PR calculator I used says to get a certain PR you need the number

of PR points below-

PR0 = 2 points.

PR1 = 15 points.

PR2 = 88 points.

PR3 = 529 points.

PR4 = 3175 points.

PR5 = 19047 points.

PR6 = 114283 points.

PR7 = 685700 points.

PR8 = 4114202 points.

PR9 = 24685213 points.

A single average PR page with one link from it transfers the number of

PR points below (85%).

PR0 - 2 points.

PR1 - 12 points.

PR2 - 75 points.

PR3 - 450 points.

PR4 - 2698 points.

PR5 - 16190 points.

PR6 - 97141 points.

PR7 - 582845 points.

PR8 - 3497072 points.

PR9 - 20982431 points.

Since 85% of 2 isn't 2 (it's 1.7), the new page calculations will over

calculate the effects of a link from a new page.

50,000 links from new pages is worth 85,000 PR points (50,000 x 1.7)

which with a base 6 system equates to a low to average PR6.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

SEO Dave wrote:

If what you wrote below is true then why all the bother with your pr6

blogsites which would not be needed if your calculations were correct

which they are not. I wish it were true because it would be a hell of a

lot easier to create a million pages then have to find pr7 links to post

too believe me. You idea of reality is my idea of the ultimate google

seo fanatsy. So if you really believe it then you don't need those

blogsites so why not give them to me because I could use them right now.

If what you wrote below is true then why all the bother with your pr6

blogsites which would not be needed if your calculations were correct

which they are not. I wish it were true because it would be a hell of a

lot easier to create a million pages then have to find pr7 links to post

too believe me. You idea of reality is my idea of the ultimate google

seo fanatsy. So if you really believe it then you don't need those

blogsites so why not give them to me because I could use them right now.

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Tell me something Sam, do you actually understand my posts?

Your responses suggest you don't.

Please read what I wrote, I said it's NOT easy to create high PR pages

by creating lots of new pages for their PR.

I'd like to see you create 1 million unique pages in a reasonable

period of time. It's taken me 5 months to create 50,000 unique pages

so will likely take years to create a million and it will take about

half a million pages to create a single PR7 page.

So do you still think it's easy to create high PR pages by just

creating lots of new pages?

That's not to say creating lots of content rich pages won't increase

PR, long term it will generate lots of links to those pages from non

reciprocal links. That's where most of the PR comes from.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Write a script, or buy one. There are plenty of ways to generate

thousands/millions of unique pages of content. Doesn't mean they will all

make sense, but the bots don't care.

I was going to offer an example of a site that does this, but it appears

that they are now offline - perhaps because a a spam report to Google

Adsense? (Now who might have done that?)

Your 50,000 pages of content serve a good purpose, and that is anchor text.

Low/no PR pages can still effect the SERPs significantly. But, we all know

about Google Bombs.

I don't know what tool you refer too. The PR formula converges on 1 after

enough iterations. PR is based on a recursive algorithm. For the

algorithm to work, it has to start with a seed. PR is effectively

calculated from that intial seed. No links, no PR.

There are tools out there that puport to show the flow of PR on a site using

the PR formula. Some are better than others. All that I have seen start

out with an assumed PR of one of the site's pages. None that I have seen

accurately reflect the recursive nature of the formula through many, many

iterations across a large number of randomly interconnected pages.

In the "old days" we got to watch the iterations take place. It was called

the Google Dance and it took several days to converge on a solution for the

Google index.

For a better understanding, try

http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html :

"We assume page A has pages T1...Tn which point to it (i.e., are

citations). The parameter d is a damping factor which can be set between 0

and 1. We usually set d to 0.85. There are more details about d in the next

section. Also C(A) is defined as the number of links going out of page A.

The PageRank of a page A is given as follows:

PR(A) = (1-d) + d (PR(T1)/C(T1) + ... + PR(Tn)/C(Tn))

Note that the PageRanks form a probability distribution over web pages, so

the sum of all web pages' PageRanks will be one."

See that last sentence - "...so the sum of all web pages' PageRanks will be

one."

Also, see http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/ which has a good discussion

of PR and the algorithm used to determine it. This site also demonstrates

pretty clearl how PR will converge on 1 for any given site that the alorithm

is applied to.

So, let me summarize. A page is selected and given an arbitrary PR value.

Beginning with that page, a recursive algorithm is applied to calculate the

actual PR value of every page in the database. The recursive algorithm

bases its calculations on the relative interconnectedness of all the pages

in the database, and the solution for all of those pages is at hand when the

sum of all the pages' PR converges on 1.

Given the prominence that the Google Directory had for such a long time, I

would conclude that it is a pretty strong possibility that the Directory

home page was/is the seed page that began the calculations, and we all know

the the Directory is a DMOZ clone. The Directory was the perfect place to

begin the crawl, and the perfect place to begin the PR calculations.

Best regards,

John Merrell

Gateway Farm Alpacas

http://www.gateway-alpacas.com

Alpaca, a natural elegance...

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

Dave,

It wouldn't take anywhere near 'years' to create a million unique pages.

I wrote a PHP script to create pages from public domain texts (that took 2 days) and

used it to create 11k unique pages in 6 hours.

I would have created more pages but I ran up against the host's file count limit on

that domain.

Bob

SEO Dave wrote:

...

...

It wouldn't take anywhere near 'years' to create a million unique pages.

I wrote a PHP script to create pages from public domain texts (that took 2 days) and

used it to create 11k unique pages in 6 hours.

I would have created more pages but I ran up against the host's file count limit on

that domain.

Bob

SEO Dave wrote:

...

...

## Re: Bootstrap PR?

On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:58:54 -0700, "Gateway Farm"

Although there is a very good chance the original PR formula has

changed, the basis of my understanding of PR is due to the original PR

formula and anyone who understands PR will generally agree with me.

From http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html

========================================

How is PageRank calculated?

To calculate the PageRank for a page, all of its inbound links are

taken into account. These are links from within the site and links

from outside the site.

PR(A) = (1-d) + d(PR(t1)/C(t1) + ... + PR(tn)/C(tn))

That's the equation that calculates a page's PageRank. It's the

original one that was published when PageRank was being developed, and

it is probable that Google uses a variation of it but they aren't

telling us what it is. It doesn't matter though, as this equation is

good enough.

In the equation 't1 - tn' are pages linking to page A, 'C' is the

number of outbound links that a page has and 'd' is a damping factor,

usually set to 0.85.

We can think of it in a simpler way:-

a page's PageRank = 0.15 + 0.85 * (a "share" of the PageRank of every

page that links to it)

"share" = the linking page's PageRank divided by the number of

outbound links on the page.

========================================

The intrinsic PR is 1-d as described above. We can't be sure exactly

what that is, but it's believed to be 0.15 (when d is .85).

So a page starts with 0.15 and gets 85% of the PR from the links it

receives divided by the number of links from the linking pages.

So the original PR formula supports what I'm saying. All pages start

with a very small amount of PR (1-d), this is then transferred to

pages it links to in an additive way with a dampening factor. If a

page has 1000 new pages linking to it, in theory (note in theory) it

gets a fair share of 85% of those 1000 pages intrinsic PR (1-d). The

pages that page links to then receives 85% of the total including the

pages 1-d intrinsic PR.

In the real world 1000 new pages with no links to them are highly

unlikely to be indexed.

What if Google adds a page from the submit form, then a random surfer

has the chance of finding the page from a Google search.

In theory you are correct, the formula doesn't really account for

'islands', but Google does. Google will index a page that's got no

links to it, you submit your site to Google and you might get indexed.

Since Google has quality guidelines presumably based on links, if a

page doesn't get any links the page is eventually removed from the

database.

If Google didn't have these controls then creating a 'continent' (say

a million page site) would in theory at least be indexed by Google and

the intrinsic PR from those million pages would be used to rank the

pages within the closed system. As I've said elsewhere 50,000 links

from new pages doesn't add up to much PR, so the 'continent' wouldn't

have an enviable PR rankings.

So what does 1-d represent in the original formula?

Completely wrong. PR is based on all the pages in the Google database,

there is no "seed" site since the formula doesn't need one.

Google says it has indexed 6 billion pages, so we have 6 billion x 1-d

that is then distributed throughout those 6 billion pages based on the

links. DMOZ and the Google directory is deep within the linking of

lots of sites, so gets more than a fair share of all those 1-d's.

It doesn't start with giving a seed site a PR10 and then progressively

shares it out as the links get further away from the main source.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

Although there is a very good chance the original PR formula has

changed, the basis of my understanding of PR is due to the original PR

formula and anyone who understands PR will generally agree with me.

From http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html

========================================

How is PageRank calculated?

To calculate the PageRank for a page, all of its inbound links are

taken into account. These are links from within the site and links

from outside the site.

PR(A) = (1-d) + d(PR(t1)/C(t1) + ... + PR(tn)/C(tn))

That's the equation that calculates a page's PageRank. It's the

original one that was published when PageRank was being developed, and

it is probable that Google uses a variation of it but they aren't

telling us what it is. It doesn't matter though, as this equation is

good enough.

In the equation 't1 - tn' are pages linking to page A, 'C' is the

number of outbound links that a page has and 'd' is a damping factor,

usually set to 0.85.

We can think of it in a simpler way:-

a page's PageRank = 0.15 + 0.85 * (a "share" of the PageRank of every

page that links to it)

"share" = the linking page's PageRank divided by the number of

outbound links on the page.

========================================

The intrinsic PR is 1-d as described above. We can't be sure exactly

what that is, but it's believed to be 0.15 (when d is .85).

So a page starts with 0.15 and gets 85% of the PR from the links it

receives divided by the number of links from the linking pages.

So the original PR formula supports what I'm saying. All pages start

with a very small amount of PR (1-d), this is then transferred to

pages it links to in an additive way with a dampening factor. If a

page has 1000 new pages linking to it, in theory (note in theory) it

gets a fair share of 85% of those 1000 pages intrinsic PR (1-d). The

pages that page links to then receives 85% of the total including the

pages 1-d intrinsic PR.

In the real world 1000 new pages with no links to them are highly

unlikely to be indexed.

What if Google adds a page from the submit form, then a random surfer

has the chance of finding the page from a Google search.

In theory you are correct, the formula doesn't really account for

'islands', but Google does. Google will index a page that's got no

links to it, you submit your site to Google and you might get indexed.

Since Google has quality guidelines presumably based on links, if a

page doesn't get any links the page is eventually removed from the

database.

If Google didn't have these controls then creating a 'continent' (say

a million page site) would in theory at least be indexed by Google and

the intrinsic PR from those million pages would be used to rank the

pages within the closed system. As I've said elsewhere 50,000 links

from new pages doesn't add up to much PR, so the 'continent' wouldn't

have an enviable PR rankings.

So what does 1-d represent in the original formula?

Completely wrong. PR is based on all the pages in the Google database,

there is no "seed" site since the formula doesn't need one.

Google says it has indexed 6 billion pages, so we have 6 billion x 1-d

that is then distributed throughout those 6 billion pages based on the

links. DMOZ and the Google directory is deep within the linking of

lots of sites, so gets more than a fair share of all those 1-d's.

It doesn't start with giving a seed site a PR10 and then progressively

shares it out as the links get further away from the main source.

David

--

http://www.search-engine-optimization-services.co.uk /

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