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Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


Could you please give me the name of such groups ? I seem to be having
trouble finding them.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

Kimmo Laine wrote:
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Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


what do you think about putting togehter a small sample application
and implementing it using different frameworks?
I will put together a small one this weekend and publish further
information on monday.

I interessted in the following frameworks:

It would be great if those who are already using one of the above
frameworks could contribute an implementation using their framework.

What do you think?

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

I would be interested in such a study. But, what info will be measured
? Can you measure reusability etc ? I think all of the study must be
done by one person or a group, so that comparison could be easier.

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

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to keep things easy just consider it as an overview of how the same
task is done by using different toolkits

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ideally yes but i think that is'nt passable. Due to the multitude of
existing frameworks.

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

Hi Nikolas,

I've already learned a lot from this thread and I think your idea is a
great one. I'm still interested in why people choose PHP for new
projects. I mean that as an unbiased question. I'm not looking for the
academically correct framework. No framework will be the best in all
cases. I'm just looking for one good framework that makes it easy for
me to get started, is flexible, speeds development and has active
community support. A framework with few quirks but the quirks it has
are workable. Maybe some my details are incorrect but these are the
impressions I have been getting

The ASP and .NET framework is for those loyal to Microsoft or those
without a choice. The ASP code I've seen looks clumsy. Dot net must run
on a Microsoft server. I'm not going to learn this option.

The JSP frameworks seem like they are also for people that like to be
part of the establishment or those without a choice. Also the Java
world seems a little stuck on itself: Java is the "right" way to do
everything. For some reason this option seems to have a big barrior to
getting started.

The PHP frameworks that have been around for a while seem like using
Linux. You have to choose all the options you want, compile the kernel,
hope everything works well together, and even after years some drivers
are still not avalible. It is frustrating to sort through all of this.
Some of the "better" of the older PHP frameworks seem to take a lot of
idea from the Java frameworks. (Why not just use Java then? Ok strongly
typed,... there are reasons.)

The newer PHP frameworks like CakePHP and Symfony and maybe Mojavi 4
want to be the Rails of the PHP world. Some PHP users can't leave for
another language but I have no reason to stick with a certain language
if the tools in another language are better. If this is the direction
that PHP users are going then I think I should learn at least a little
about Rails.

So on the advice of some converted PHP framework developers, I've ended
up learning a little about Ruby on Rails in the last few days. It is
great so far. It is so easy to use. The Rails package is a unified
framework. It has all the tools for ORM, unit testing, validation,
templating all worked in. The community is very active and growing
fast. Rails seems to be living up to its advertised strengths of
reducing development time. Over all if the other options are like
choosing Windows or Linux then Rails is like choosing OS X*. What I
mean is maybe there are slightly better components out there for
certain parts of the framework but as a whole the Rails components are
tightly integrated. I like the fact that the community is largely
behind this one framework. Maybe as time passes the community will
split but for now it seems unified. Rails was so easy to set up. In
fact, less that two hours with Rails had me thinking I should ditch PHP
right away. I have ordered a book about using Rails and can't wait for
it to arrive. That's right, a book. A book exists. Is there a PHP
framework with a book? Documentation is a big part of the marketing and
success of a software product.

So I have based my investigation on the experience of others. What you
are suggesting would formalize this type of investigation. It is a
great idea. It would be a lot of work. This would be cool. Specify a
sample app that would be written in each language/framework. The sample
app would involve a database, forms, validation, unit testing. Invite
an expert to write a tutorial for the app for their framework. Have
someone that has never used two of the frameworks to follow the
tutorials for each. Winning framework, based on opinion, advances. Like
hockey playoffs. Another option if you had more willing people would be
a round robin tournament. Another option that could be used alone or in
combination with one of these would having a standardized way of
reviewing the frameworks.

How difficult is it to set up a development computer for the framework
on OS X, Linux, Windows?
How many characters must be typed to implement the sample app?
How many lines of code must be written to implement?
How many files must be touched to implement?
What is the average execution speed of a page request (need a standard

So there are a bunch of thoughts but I don't know if they are really
necessary. If experienced coders are moving to Rails in big numbers
then that is your comparison experiment right there. They are moving
because individually they see Rails as a better framework overall. So
much better that it is even worth them leaving their comfortable old
language and learning Ruby which they also say is better. I want to use
an existing framework because I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I'm
trying to listen to others experience because slowly repeating their
process of ending up using Rails is like reinventing the wheel too.


*Over the years I have tried Windows and Linux and am much happier with
my OS X system

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

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This is exactly what i was thinking about matter if its language
or not.
Just givin an overview of what exists,what is used and how it works.
 Giving interessted people the opportunity to  choice what ever fits
their needs and affectations.
As mentioned before i will put together a small sample application
which will hopefully cover the most importend aspects.
But lets keep things simple for the 1 step. Having a small comparison
is much better than having tons of academic ideas/aspects but nothing
real existing.

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


I think the sample app has to be at least complex enough to test the
main features that people want in a framework: form validation, unit
testing, athentication, etc. If the sample app is only a little more
than "hello, world" then the good and mediocre frameworks will come out
the same. If there are no objective measures then I think the
comparison results will be dismissed by most people.

Maybe this could be run like a yearly competition. Each year the sample
app is updated to refelect the way people want to work. Get some prize
money to support the winning project or something.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

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yes indeed, i got something in mind which covers all mentioned aspects.
be patienced ;)

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


I too think ruby on rails is hot.
Although the presentation layer lacks reusability, in my opinion, and
models too, being too tightly coupled on db and not using the model
relationship code in controller but in the model itself,  it is really
some fast way to build an application, and the resulting work is not
bad either.


Would testing frameworks for php be adequate for you ? I think java,
dotnet frameworks and even ones such as ruby on rails alongside with
php should be tested in my opinion, and according to some criterias, as
as Peter stated.

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


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What about helper functions and partials?

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How so?

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What's wrong with that? (I'm new to MVC)


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

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it depends: from the academic  point of view other language's
frameworks are also
interessting. But for the moment i will be satisfied with php.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


i put together a small sample application, which covers the most common
have a look at /.
I will wait about one week to integration improvements/suggestions and
correct errors.
After that i will post the link to all relevant forums news groups.

Any suggestions and comments are highly appreciated.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

HI Nikolas,

Could you provide a little discription about what the application does?
If this comparison project is going to be successful then I think the
sample application needs a name and version number. In the future
people may want to make a new application specification to incorporate
new ideas in web programming. Then we will know which comparisons go
with which application and version of that application.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

Also having a named and versioned application will allow for advances
in programming environment PHP6, Rails 2.0 when these become available.

Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

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yes but don't care if its useful or not ;)
It's a kind of contactmanagment .
You got contacts (persons) and you are able to have 0toN notes to these

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Yes you are right...i already got some feedback containing ideas like
But i wan't to keep the basic sample as easy as possible to avoid
people from getting discouraged about it's complexity.
So i decided to keep all additional ideas as 'extras'
e.q. sampleapp 1.0 implement in xzq...with extra (needs to be specified
of course) userpriv .

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It will of course ...i thought about "sampleApp" or something but this
is not that
important at the moment ...lets see if people are interessted or not

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Yes right i got that in mind but first of all i need to know if i
missed something general.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment


could you please give me the name of one of such groups ? I seem to be
having trouble with finding such users for php.


Re: Professional Applications Devolpment

Weird-beard schrieb:

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yes me too !

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That is definitive the most profoundly aspect making me hesitant to
over to JSP/java -> the infrastructur.
But meanwhile i really wonder if i had better start learning JSP
instead of
spendig that much time looking vor a passable PHP solution :|

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yes indeed !

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^^^^ thats the point

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yes thats why most questions in php usergroups about handcraft stuff
like "how to open a file" da da..


Ruby vs. Java

Ruby vs. Java = Ruby wins

Hemos on Slashdot rewrote a Java app in Rails

Lines of Code
Rails: 1164
Java: 3293

Number of Classes:
Rails: 55
Java: 62

Number of Methods:
Rails: 126
Java: 549

Configuration Lines
Rails: 113
Java: 1161

Rails app 15-30% faster



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link to slashdot page for this slide

Professional Web Development

Didn't mean to change the subject

Maybe better to say it was

Ruby on Rails vs. Java/Spring

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