You say megabyte, I say mebibyte - Page 3

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Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

the part where you make use of words like binary, decimal, and number
system.

I do understand what you are saying, which is what you said before,
and what I and Miles and we are all trying to drill into GT's head.

But the way you are using these terms just makes no sense.

What is "a prefix having a different value in the decimal system".
I know exactly what you mean, but what you wrote does not mean
anything.

Different value to what?

when you said "a prefix" were you referring to a 2^ prefix, or a 10^
prefix?  I know what you mean, and I know what you would have written
if asked . you would have written binary prefix. But you did not say.
You define nothing.

Your mistake there (I can see how you misdefined things) is one does
not have a prefix like Mega having a different value in different
number systems. The 2^20 prefix is a different prefix to the 10^6
prefix, even though both go by the same name of Mega.

Furthermore,
It just so happens, that by some annoying terminology, the 2^20 prefix
is known as the binary prefix. Binary in a general sense can mean
boolean, or it can as in this case, related to powers of 2.
Binary prefix does not mean binary number system. Certainly not in
this case. If it was in the binary number system it would be in 1s and
0s.

I do understand what you mean. But the meaning of what you are writing
when -you- start using words like binary, decimal, number system,
prefix, together, is nonsense. no meaning at all.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

[snip]

That is where you all make your mistake. The prefix / term Mega does not
have 2 meanings. It has 1 meaning - 10^6 AKA 1 million. 2^20 is not Mega -
it is commonly mistaken for Mega, but is not Mega.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Don`t play games and try to hitchhike your stupid argument onto
it is not relevant to what I wrote to Kony here. I responded to your
argument in this thread, when it was appropriate to do so. As did
everybody else. Fortunately for me, you repeatedly failed to even
write a response to me (no prizes for why I said "fortunately").
Don`t hijack other points and drop your crap on them. This is a
different subject. The subject is about Kony`s usage of the terms
binary, number system, prefix, together. It is one point I separated
from his post, I separated it because it is one thing that had nothing
to do with you/this stupid argument you have been repeating over and
over (so unless you want to contribute to  - for or against IT (IT
being the point I am making HERE), then don`t.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Your so called change of subject contained an attack on me... "trying to
drill into GT's head.". In my eyes this warranted a response from me and was
not, as you are trying to twist it, a response directly and solely to Kony.
It was also not a change of subject! This entire thread has turned into an
argument about the prefix Mega and whether it is or is not a standard. I
have yet to see a single reply (quoting Wikipedia indicates a lost
argument!) that supports your argument that Mega is 2^20. When your opinion
differs from mine, I will respond. If you feel I am saying the same thing
over and over, then perhaps that is because my point is simple and correct,
so when the replies repeat the same incorrect nonsense about standards being
changed, what am I supposed to do? I certainly won't be joining you on theMS
bandwagon and start changing my view on mathematics?

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:56:42 -0000, "GT"

Ok, here ya go:
http://www.dramexchange.com /

Entire page full of memory chips bought and sold by the
major players in the industry. megabit, gigabit, megabyte,
gigabyte all in specific binary values.

It's not that there isn't anything supporting the binary
argument, it's that you choose to ignore everything around
you, the very industry that uses the term.  Microsoft just
used the standard terms that pre-dated them, BECAUSE it was
standard, they certainly didn't pull the number out of thin
air for no reason.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Very interesting, but I see nothing on there from any authority stating a
change in the standard SI terms, therefore your post re-inforces the point
that there is no change to that standard meaning of the SI unit Mega - mega
is 10^6.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:31:21 -0000, "GT"

You see every listing of memory chips in the industry
standard terms based upon the binary values not your 10^6
value.  The standard is based upon the USE of the term, all
along, not what some 3rd party comes along and says it means
later.   Also, you still haven't shown any example of anyone
using the term to mean what you claim before a few years
ago, making it awefully funny to suggest the standard is
what nobody was using.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

The fact I insulted you there does not change what happened.

You still tried to hijack a post , as I described.

it was not a response directly and solely to Kony. Anybody can
contribute. But you hijacked it with your very different nonsense, in
the way that I described.

Now, you may take "nonsense" as another insult, it is.  So change the
word to "brilliance" if you want. But it is not what I was arguing
there.You hijacked it with your nonsense.

The reality is that the only reason why Kony has not cornered you and
turned you into a mashed potato, is because as right as his general
point is. He has not clearly defined his terms and concepts.

Maybe between you and Kony it has.

If there is a standard saying it is 2^20 then it is obscure and not
well recognised, and irrelevant. As far as I know there isn't one, but
there may be.

My position is clear. You want to argue with me, then respond to where
I responded to you elsewhere, and dealt with your argument. Why should
I repeat it, it does not help anybody anymore for me to do that.

This is not a fact like 1+1=3D2.

A slightly better analogy is that those in britain say colour, and
those in america say color. And what is correct depends on context -
the context being your location (or, whichever rules you claim to
follow - british or american - though you would need some
justification for choosing the rules you have chosen). It is a poor
analogy, I am not playing games over analogies, so don't argue with my
analogy, and don't bring your nonsense in here. I responded to you

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On 9 Feb, 19:29, "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk"
<snip>

I retract that a bit.  It would not suprise me if there was a formal
standard for Mega in the context of RAM . Nevertheless, it makes no
difference.  The arguments against you have nothing to do with
requiring such a standard.

Even if there was, and it was well known and (if the standard i.e. per
se, was) accepted by masses, or a majourity of or all techies, it
would make no difference to anybody.

It would not break your argument any more than it already has been.

And given the stupid reasons you have given, you still would not
retract them. Because as you would rightly point out to defend your
stupid argument, the mathematical standard (with 10^6) for those
prefixes came first anyway.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

There is a formal standard for Mega in any context (including RAM) - its
10^6, or 'million'.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

ok.. since my post has been there for a while, Kony has been given
ample time to respond.   And clearly you are not able to respond to an
older post. So now I will go along with you changing the subject back

Standards are not Law.

I accept that SI notation standard. I even accept it the way it was
intended. It was intended to make it easier for mathematicians to
specify large numbers.   And of course they intended that there
needn`t be confusion amongst mathematicians or logical people, as to
how they are presenting their numbers.

The notation became ESTABLISHED. Not because it was a standard, but
because it was widespread and people accepted it.  And because it
still is.

Suppose Joe Bloggs comes up with a standard, then are you bound by it?
Or if Linus Torvalds or IBM come up with a crap standard about how we
use certain words.  Are you bound by it? Or can you choose whether you
want to accept it?   Many consider the newer standard you quote about
Kibibytes, to be crap. And clearly others like it. So that is the way
it is.

You mention Ubuntu
I don`t have a problem with Ubuntu documentation writers using it.
Maybe like other small minded people, they use it for the reason you
praise it for. It looks "good".  Maybe so, from the  perspective of
them showing off how much they know, to the ignorant, typically when
they know only a -little- more than their readers do.  (in large
projects, documentation writers are often not the technical people,
not the programmers. Really they should be, and there is no good
reason why they shouldn`t be. But sadly many programmers cannot write
or communicate to people and do not like doing documentation).
Nevertheless..  If the kibibyte and the rest does become widesspread
and gain acceptance, all over the technical world, then fine. I am not
opposing that.  I am just saying that it won`t happen, because it is
crap. Unnecessary crap.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

The fact I insulted you there does not change what happened.

You still tried to hijack a post , as I described.

it was not a response directly and solely to Kony. Anybody can
contribute.

Then I shall.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Listen, you illogical dumbo.. I said that anybody can contribute and I
gave the reason why I said you hijacked it.  It was nothing to do with
who you are (or are not). It was to do with what you said.  So stop
pretending it was because of who you are(or who you are not).

And don`t change the subject from the subject of the above paragraph.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:26:51 -0000, "GT"

Wanna bet?  You might have some memory in your computer,
care to tell us how the manufacturer (following
international standards) rates it's capacity?

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Bet accepted:
The label suggests that this DIMM should be capable of holding 1GB, which as
we know from th SI units is 1x10^9, or 1,000,000,000 Bytes. However the DIMM
actually holds 1,073,741,824 Bytes, or 1.07 * 10^9 (or GB). The label is
unfortunately under-stating the capacity of the DIMM by 7%.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:38:29 -0000, "GT"

Nope, as we know based upon the standard used for years,
it's a respresentation of a binary value.

Nope, memory is based on binary values, read the actual chip
spec sheets and you will see this.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

Mega is a standard term meaning 10^6. Mebi is a standard term meaning 2^20.
Trying to use Mean to mean 2^20 is an attempt to redefine the standard term
and is therefore wrong.

One last time - the computer industry didn't develop these terms. The terms
exists long before that and the computer industry has tried to re-define the
standard!

Kony, you have said this before and I have tried to explain to you. It
doesn't matter what information is stored inside something, we can count
quantity in any base we choose. Bits are binary digits, but I can still have
decimal 37 of them, there is nothing wrong with counting in the base
familiar to 99.99% of the planet's population! Coin tosses are binary
results (heads or tails = 0 or 1). I can count the number of coin tosses in
decimal just as validly as I can count bits in decimal. If you want to count
them in base 2, them please go ahead, but you will find that 2^10, 2^20 etc
are not a binary numbers so you are in fact still counting in base 10, so

Which computer terms are you talking about? Mega isn't a computer-specific
term its a mathematical term meaning 10^6.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:49:38 -0000, "GT"

Except in the computer industry.

To someone not in the computer industry and thus, ignorant
of the correct terms.

Except in the computer industry.  The evidence is
staggering, all around us.  Even those who claim we should
use  different terms are already conceding we are supposed
to "change" the standard way of expression to their new way
that they feel is more philosophically correct.  There'd be
nothing to change if they weren't trying to mess with
standard definitions.

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

No, in every industry - it is a *standard*.

Which you clearly are!

No, in every industry - it is a *standard*.

Absolutely - there should be nothing to change. The standard SI terms have
been around for decades, centuries - you should just accept the standard SI
terms and stop moaning that they don't quite apply to the computing industry
and therefore stop trying to 'bend' them and just use the correct terms!

Re: You say megabyte, I say mebibyte

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:41:14 -0000, "GT"

You don't know what a standard is.  As already stated, the
standard is what those actually using the terms settled on,

Again I ask for an example of someone using the terms (which
they'd have to, for it to be the standard) more than a few
years ago in which the use agrees with your definition.

You are essentially trying to claim everyone using the term
did it wrong up until recent years when a few people wanted
to _change_ the term.  Whether you feel it was wrong or not,
that it was the industry's accepted and vast majority use is