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## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Not if you use the right maths.

The main problem is that the hard drive manufacturers state the size

in decimal GBs, 1,000,000,000 bytes because that is the SI standard.

Its often shown in binary GBs in the OS, 1,073,741,824 bytes.

You also lose a much smaller amount in the file structures, directorys etc.

## Re: Re: Actual hard drive space?

"40gb" = 40 000 000 000 bytes

= 40 000 000 000 ÷ 1024 = 39 062 500 kb

= 39 062 500 ÷ 1024 = 38 147 mb

= 38 147 ÷ 1024 = 37.25 gb

Windows will report 37.25 gb if the whole drive is formatted to one

partition (many PCs use 3gb+ for a recovery partition). With 12% for system

restore, around 1gb for pagefile and 1gb for hibernate files and 15% free so

defrag will work well, you don't end up with much usable space!!

-Jeepers Creepers

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

the relationship between a megabyte( 2^20) and an approximation of the

megabyte, (10^6), is a factor of 1.048576.

Meaning that to get from one to the other, you multiply or divide by

1.048576

A megabyte is 1,048,576 bytes. The Approximation is 1,000,000.

Somtimes one is called the binary megabyte and the other the decimal

megabyte, but it's not a different number system. The approximation or

decimal megabyte is just using 10^ instead of 2^.

The 10^6 figure is a smaller unit.. So more of it are used to equal a

corresponding amount of the the 'binary megabyte', which is a larger

unit.

"they say" that Hard Drive marketting people use the 'decimal

megabyte' because it sounds better, larger numbers.

The 'decimal megabyte' uses the mathemetical term Mega correctly,

since mathematically, Mega=10^6

A Kilobyte is 2^10

Megabyte is 2^20

Gigabyte is 2^30

So a megayte is 1024 kilobytes.

A gigabyte is 1024 megabytes e.t.c.

The mathematical notation just uses thousands.

Mega = 10^6

Giga=10^9

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/prefixes.html

e.t.c.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

It is actually, different base.

So its a different number system.

Only the pig ignorant fools. Its the SI standard, legally required in many

countrys.

Its the binary gigabyte that makes no sense with something

like a hard drive which isnt intrinsically binary organised.

And the 1.44MB floppy is actually a weird binary/decimal hybrid.

It is actually, different base.

So its a different number system.

Only the pig ignorant fools. Its the SI standard, legally required in many

countrys.

Its the binary gigabyte that makes no sense with something

like a hard drive which isnt intrinsically binary organised.

And the 1.44MB floppy is actually a weird binary/decimal hybrid.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

No, 2^x cannot even be binary. The number 2 doesn't even exist in

binary.

Perhaps the term base has 2 meanings. Base^Exponent, and base as in

number system.

But Binary - as far as I know - only applies to number systems, and

that is the term I use here. It is in that context that I use the word

base.

Were they to not use the SI standard, and to use [what you deny to be]

the standard meaning in computing, then I am not convinced that they'd

be sued for understating the specification of their product.

I haven't read about how they organise their data, but electronics

knows HIGHS and LOWS, ACTIVE or Not. At the lowest level, it appears

to me to be binary.

<snip>

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

On 24 Feb 2007 10:53:56 -0800, "jameshanley39@yahoo.co.uk"

The significant detail is that 1,000,000 being called

megabyte is invalid.

Because byte only exists in a different system, not a

decimal system, the two different system terms can't be

intermixed. Mega on the other hand, exists in both systems

so it can be applied to a binary system number.

If someone wanted to call 1,000,000 as a megablob, or other

megaTHING, that would work, but it cannot be called megabyte

unless the number expressed is 1,048,576. Similarly a

kilobyte is never 1000, and a byte itself is never 10 bits.

Approximations aren't sufficient, and WD lost a class action

suit over that so precedence has been set in the legal world

as well as in the computer world. It's a shame the matter

wasn't pursued more when manufactureres first started

mislabeling drives, but on the other hand there are better

ways to spend the courts' time.

The significant detail is that 1,000,000 being called

megabyte is invalid.

Because byte only exists in a different system, not a

decimal system, the two different system terms can't be

intermixed. Mega on the other hand, exists in both systems

so it can be applied to a binary system number.

If someone wanted to call 1,000,000 as a megablob, or other

megaTHING, that would work, but it cannot be called megabyte

unless the number expressed is 1,048,576. Similarly a

kilobyte is never 1000, and a byte itself is never 10 bits.

Approximations aren't sufficient, and WD lost a class action

suit over that so precedence has been set in the legal world

as well as in the computer world. It's a shame the matter

wasn't pursued more when manufactureres first started

mislabeling drives, but on the other hand there are better

ways to spend the courts' time.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Corse it isnt.

Wrong, as always. Its just a prefix.

Pathetic, really. Pity we happen to be discussing MB and GB.

Completely off with the fucking fairys, as always.

Completely off with the fucking fairys, as always.

Like hell it has when the drive manufacturer makes

clear that its using the decimal form of GB.

Nothing 'mislabeling' about using the SI standard prefix and

making it very clear that they are using the decimal form.

Courts are completely irrelevant. In spades with that sort of

terminally stupid decision made by that particular fool of a judge.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

that's true but that's a different point to the one I made

no.. Byte means 8 bits. But you can count bytes in any number system.

And a Byte itself is nothing to do with a number system at all really.

It's an "articificial" unit to count 8 binary digits. It's a concept.

It doesn't really exist dependent or as part of a number system.

Of course, its contents are bits - binary digits! Which is just a way

of writing a number. One could write its value in hex octal or

decimal. I suppose physically it's a component of the binary number

system. But logically it can be represented in any base. I think,

even a number is not a component of a number system, it's only

represented in whichever number system you write it in. A number

system is a system of representing numbers. Nothing is locked into it.

Indeed. It means 10^6 or if one were wacky enough to write that in

binary.

1010^0110

I agree. But that is because CONVENTION is that Mega when used with

Byte, does not mean 10^6, it means 2^20.

that parallel is absurd.

A byte is a byte. 8 bits. Nobody debates this and calls it 10. Ever.

In contrast,

A Kilobyte is 1024 bytes.

But a mathematical Kilobyte (and we nkow what that means) SI, is 1000

Bytes. i.e. 8000 bits. Of course though, a Byte is still 8 bits.

Even by that traditional mathematical definition of Kilo.

(if you were to even attempt to redefine byte instead of the

prefix(kilo,mega), then you'd end up with a different factor or

definition of byte for each prefix. It'd be ridiculouly nobody does

it, nobody would do it. It's not in the same bag as SI units)

If this is correct then Ron had it backwards.

But even without seeing an example, if it were the Ron's way around

it'd be totally absurd. "the defendent is guilty of understating the

specification of his product. The complainant was very err !! filled

with guilt!!!!! "

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Not really, it is an invalid expression to have more than

one system mangled into a single quantity.

Wrong, it is just as real a part of a number system as any

other term, or if you want to call it a "concept", so is any

numerical term.

Nope, it would be equally absurd to put byte in front of a

decimal system value. Can't mix two systems in one

expression.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Forget bits and binary... They aren't really related to the problem here...

In English, "kilo" means thousand, "mega" means million, giga means billion,

"tera" means trillion, etc...

A "five kilogram" bag of sugar weights 5,000 grams. "25 megawatts" of power

is 25,000,000 watts. To a person, a megabyte is a million bytes. A gigabyte

is a billion bytes.

The reason for this is that 1,000 is a natural boundary for people to use.

Would it make any sense that a kilo is 893 of something? No, because we can

count to 999 before we need to add more digits.

In computer terminology, "kilo" means 1,024, "mega" means

1024x1024=1,048,576, "giga" means 1024x1024x1024=1,073,741,824, "tera" means

1024x1024x1024x1024=1,099,511,627,776.

The reason that computer terminology bases it's numbering system around

1,024 is because it's a natural boundary for computers. Since computers use

base 2, their boundaries are numbers like 8, 16, 32...etc...1024,

2048...etc...1073741824, 2147483648, 4294967296...etc. Writing these in base

2 we can see the pattern... 1000 is 8, 10000 is 16, 100000 is 32, 1000000000

is 1024, 10000000000 is 2048, 10000000000000000000 is 1073741824,

100000000000000000000 is 2147483648.

So when you buy your drive at the store, the saleman tells you it has

100gigabytes, meaning it has 100 billion bytes of space. When you put it in

your computer, it will tell you that you have a 93gigabyte drive, meaning

that you have 93x1024x1024x1024 bytes of space (93.1322... actually).

Now, on top of this, the drive must be formatted before it can be used at

all, so some space will always be used by your file system, even on an empty

drive, to keep track of empty drive space, partitions, etc. Also, the

manufacturer uses some of the drive to map sectors, etc. Any empty drive

really isn't empty at all.

In English, "kilo" means thousand, "mega" means million, giga means billion,

"tera" means trillion, etc...

A "five kilogram" bag of sugar weights 5,000 grams. "25 megawatts" of power

is 25,000,000 watts. To a person, a megabyte is a million bytes. A gigabyte

is a billion bytes.

The reason for this is that 1,000 is a natural boundary for people to use.

Would it make any sense that a kilo is 893 of something? No, because we can

count to 999 before we need to add more digits.

In computer terminology, "kilo" means 1,024, "mega" means

1024x1024=1,048,576, "giga" means 1024x1024x1024=1,073,741,824, "tera" means

1024x1024x1024x1024=1,099,511,627,776.

The reason that computer terminology bases it's numbering system around

1,024 is because it's a natural boundary for computers. Since computers use

base 2, their boundaries are numbers like 8, 16, 32...etc...1024,

2048...etc...1073741824, 2147483648, 4294967296...etc. Writing these in base

2 we can see the pattern... 1000 is 8, 10000 is 16, 100000 is 32, 1000000000

is 1024, 10000000000 is 2048, 10000000000000000000 is 1073741824,

100000000000000000000 is 2147483648.

So when you buy your drive at the store, the saleman tells you it has

100gigabytes, meaning it has 100 billion bytes of space. When you put it in

your computer, it will tell you that you have a 93gigabyte drive, meaning

that you have 93x1024x1024x1024 bytes of space (93.1322... actually).

Now, on top of this, the drive must be formatted before it can be used at

all, so some space will always be used by your file system, even on an empty

drive, to keep track of empty drive space, partitions, etc. Also, the

manufacturer uses some of the drive to map sectors, etc. Any empty drive

really isn't empty at all.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

or maths !

it's easy to write in Base 10

I know you know what you mean by natural boudnary, but it's an

artificial term. I'll elaborate on what I think you mean. I woujldn't

invent a term like that.

What you mean by "natural boundary".. Is the range and max number you

can reach with x digits.

It's as natural as us being able to reference 10,000 values -

0....9999 if given 4 decimal digits. But it's not "natural" to be

limited to 4 digits. Infact, it's not natural or unnatural. The term

natural doesn't apply !

what you call "natural boundaries" is more corectly the range or max

num of different values you are limited to when using x digits.

Computer designers don't just say I want to address 1000 memory

locations or 1016 of them. They may say that, then they'll say,

that'll need a minimum of 10 bits , and lo and behold, they can

address 2^10=1024 different locations 0..1023.

it's only limited to a number of digits and looking at the full range

you can reach, and max number of different numbers you can produce,

that you get this.

indeed.

Giga=thousand mega (in byte or maths speak)

And HDD manufacturers use the mathematical meaning. So it's true to

say Giga=billion=thousand million.

<snip>

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Wrong with cpu speed, comms speed, hard drive capacity, etc etc etc.

Wrong with everything except memory which does have an

intrinsically binary organisation with most, but not all, memory.

Not all do that either.

Pity there is no pattern with cpu speed, comms speed, hard drive capacity, etc

etc etc.

Not all computers do that either.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

Corse you can and the industry does too.

Have fun explaining comms speeds which are universally

decimal counts of bytes/sec etc when bytes are used.

Its just the item being counted. That is never part of the number system.

Corse can, and its done all the time most obviously with

comms speeds which never use the binary multiplier.

## Re: Actual hard drive space?

I can say 56 bytes. 56 is decimal. I'm counting something. In

decimal.

You misinterpreted what I meant when I said you can count bytes in any

number system.

You can also value a byte in any number system. A Byte can have the

value of 112 (that 112 i've written is in decimal). That's a decimal

representation of what is in the byte.

Of course, a byte is 8 bits, at the physical level, it's binary -

bits.

Inside the byte, it's bits, physically. But logically, one can

represent that value in any number system. People do.

Programmers often use Hex to represent bytes because it's a shorthand

******

***if***

******you were correct, that it is absurd to say Million Bytes

because it's a "decimal system value" mixed with Byte which you say is

a "binary system value", and you say you can't mix 2 systems. Then

it's supposedly equally absurd to say 16 bytes, or 19 bytes. 16 and

19 are as decimal as a million.

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