Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

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+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
 VG> Why do you use a stupid-ass usenet client that does not insert
 VG> "Re:" in the subject line when you post a reply?

1. i do not use a "stupid-ass usenet client"
2. prepending RE: to the subject is not required

if you use threaded views, my messages should thread in with no problems...

other than that, i cannot help you with whatever problem it is you seem to be
having with my posts...  you don't explain anything about the problem but
instead seem to be attacking me for for my method of participating in this
area... why? i don't know...

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> Yes you do.

no sir, i do not... i don't even use an usenet client at all in this
environment... i use a local sysop's editor that accesses my message bases
directly... the messages are not even in news format or transferred to my
system via the nntp protocol...

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 VG> In over 20 years of reading and posting to usenet,  

20? is that all? geez you're a young'un ;)

 VG> your posts are the only ones that I've ever seen not insert "Re:"  
 VG> into the subject line of a reply.

i can't help that... some editors do it and others do not... it is not required
by the specifications that i've ever seen...

 VG> It should not be necessary to use threaded views to know at a
 VG> glance which posts are original and which are replies.

agreed... one can also simply look at the reply's references line(s)... in my
editor, i see additional message numbers and i can easily CTRL-Left or
CTRL-Right to jump to them if i want to...

 VG> I don't happen to like using threaded view - I prefer simple
 VG> temporal (linear) view of posts in a given newsgroup.

as do it and i read the messages in the order in whech they arrived... not in
some sorted by date and time order as used to be done ;)
  
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 VG> I am pointing out the glaring lack of conformity of your usenet
 VG> client software

again, i am not using any type of usenet software at all... your problem stems
from an incorrect assumption and i can only try to educate you about why it is
incorrect...

 VG> in comparison to otherwise universally-recognized standards that  
 VG> are adhered to by all "normal" usenet clients.

see above...

 VG> That you access usenet from a FidoNet gateway should make no
 VG> difference in terms of this conformity.

i do not access it /from/ a fidonet gateway, either... once the messages hit
the gateway, they are converted to FTN format and transferred to other FTN
systems using FTN technology... i read the messages on my own BBS and actually,
right now, i'm reading them from one of my FTN point systems...

 VG> Or perhaps the gateway itself is responsible for the half-baked
 VG> formatting of your posts - formatting that you have no control
 VG> over... ?  

i do not know what software the gateway system is using so i cannot respond to
that...

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 F> Windows 98 causes brain damage.

what does that have to do with the supposed problem with my posts that VG is
going on about? this system is not running w98 and other systems i use are not
even using winwhatever anyway...

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 MW> The point is that VG is running W98:

AH!! yeah, i knew that... i just didn't think about it... you are right :LOL:

thanks for giving my head a shake ;)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 F> Nothing, but it does relate to how far you will get trying to
 F> educate  him.

thanks! mark warner set me straight :)

FWIW: if my w98 box hadn't shit the sheets a few years ago, i'd still be using
it, too... i'd have installed on a clean drive it only bad part was not being
able to get all the security updates that were available for it before m$ EoL'd
it... once they killed the downloads, they also killed the CDs you could buy...
oh well... w2k is better anyway ;) :lol:

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 D> You've totally lost him. You know that right? :)

that's part of educating him... give them exposure to the terms and
procedures... then educate them to remove their ignorance ;)
  
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 D> LOL!

hahaha... that was good wasn't it :)  but seriously, i don't know what software
the gateway site is using... i know that it is different than the software my
own system uses for gating but i don't gate this area on my system because
someone else is already gating it...

i do gate a few other areas but the software doesn't take it upon itself to
modify the header fields or  to add/remove RE: for example... it would be quite
stupid if the gateway did do that...

if the gateway looked for the references line, how could the software tell from
that if i was actually responding to the current thread or just using it as a
shortcut to starting a new thread (bad netiquette) with the same subject or
even a new thread with a new subject? since the gateway can't tell that, why
would it unceremoniously prefix RE: to every post going thru it? all the
gateway is is a "media convertor" ;)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 MW> If Windows was still my daily driver, I'd probably still be using  
 MW> W2K  too. Or at least I'd like to be able to. I don't care that
 MW> MSFT no  longer supports it, but I suspect it would be hard to get
 MW> recent  applications to run on it.

yep for the most part... there are a few methods avaiable to help those
damnable installers do the installs... they provide the missing/updated
procedure calls in replacement dlls which also call the original dlls to pass
the information on thru the system...

an example is flash... it is the installer that has dropped support for w2k...
flash itself still runs on w2k without the additional kernel dll shims...

another package that has the same problem uses a different installer... it is
freepascal or lazarus... i forget which... the damned installer dropped support
for w2k so one has to use kernel dll shims to provide the missing reoutines...

in some cases, it is possible to hex edit the installer and change the name of
the missing routine(s) to what was used originally... they are the same length
and the parameters are the same between them... then you don't need the shims
at all... doing the hex edit thing on the binary each time can be troublesome,
though...

in any case, i've removed all that stuff... no flash or java on this
workstation... no quicktime, realaudio, shockwave or even silverlight... if i
absolutely need to see something that uses that technology, i go to another
machine and use it from there... it is the safest way to be sure ;)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 F> RFC-850 states:

i like this part at the very beginning of the document...

[quote]
[ This memo is distributed as an RFC  only  to  make  this
information  easily  accessible to researchers in the ARPA
community.  It does not specify  an  Internet  standard. ]  
[/quote]


 F> 2.1.6  Subject   The  Subject  line  (formerly    "Title")
 F> tells  what the article is about.  It should be suggestive
 F> enough of the contents of the article to enable  a  reader
 F> to  make  a  decision whether to read the article based on
 F> the  subject  alone.   If  the  article  is  submitted  in
 F> response  to another article (e.g., is a  "followup")  the
 F> default subject should  begin  with  the  four  characters
 F> "Re: "   and the References line is required.    (The user
 F> might wish to edit the subject of the  followup,  but  the
 F> default should begin with  "Re: ".)

i also like the way it says "should" instead of "must" ;)

 F> It *is* a convention for Usenet clients, but he is not using a
 F> Usenet  client.

this is correct... my current reader/editor is TimED as should be able to be
seen if my control lines make it thru the gateway's gating process... i'll be
checking on that later ;)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> Isin't it more correct to say that It *is* a convention for Usenet
 VG> - period?

nope...

 VG> Why qualify it by saying Usenet Clients?

because usenet servers don't deal with things like this...

 VG> Why should it matter if what-ever he's using doesn't meet your
 VG> criteria of what constitutes a usenet client?

 VG> Where else are his posts being seen, other than here on usenet?  

errrmmmm... on Fidonet?

 VG> How can it NOT be a function of what-ever software he is using that
 VG> it doesn't pre-pend "Re: " to the subject line of a reply  

because fidonet clients are not all programmed to add the "Re: " fluff to the
subject lines... it is not needed and serves no techinical purpose...

 VG> yet it apparently does understand enough to add a reference line?

my client doesn't know what a Message-ID: or References line is so it does not
generate them at all... Fidonet uses MSGID and REPLY lines for message
identification and reply linking... these are used by the gating software to
generate the Message-ID: and References: lines... however, Fidonet also does
NOT require that MSGID or REPLY lines be used... they are add-ons to the
Fidonet message specifications... but if MSGID is created, then REPLY must also
be used in reply posts... in other words, one cannot support half of the
MSGID/REPLY specification...

you can find Fidonet's Message specifications at the FTSC (Fidonet Technical
Standards Committee) web site, ftsc.org... FTS-0009 is the one for MSGID/REPLY
lines... FTS-0004 is the one for basic Fidonet message formats...

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> The gateway need do nothing other than inject your post into
 VG> usenet.  

the gateway has to format the postings to fit the specification of the
destination network... from this side, that is usenet being the destination...

 VG> A post that was properly constructed to begin with - such
 VG> as having "Re: " in the subject line of a reply.

my posts are properly constructed... read the RFCs, my friend... they allow for
this...

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 VG> My god-damn 12-year-old Netscape Communicator knows to

there is no reason to cuss me is there?

 VG> automatically insert "Re: " into the subject line of a post when I
 VG> hit reply.  Why doesn't your software do that?

because "Re: " is OPTIONAL.. read the RFC... the operative word is "should"...
"should" is not spelled "M U S T"... i also suggest you look at RFC-2119... in
particular, this section...

[quote]
1. MUST   This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
   definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.

2. MUST NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the
   definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification.

3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

4. SHOULD NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that
   there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the
   particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full
   implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed
   before implementing any behavior described with this label.

5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)
[/quote]

 VG> Where are your posts being seen - other than on usenet?

uuhhh... Fidonet??

 VG> Does fidonet have this exact "alt.comp.anti-virus" group?

you've been told that this group is being gated to fidonet so yes, fidonet has
this exact group... on this side, the echotag for this area is
ALT-COMP-ANTI-VIRUS... what's your point?

 VG> Is it against fidonet message-composition rules to pre-pend "Re: "
 VG> to the subject lines of replies?  

i've been telling you since you brought this up that "Re: " is OPTIONAL in both
networks... do i need to write it slower so you can understand it easier? i'm
not trying to be an ass here... i am, however, trying to educate you about
something that you are apparently ignorant of...

additional, i'm trying understand why you are attacking me all of a sudden...
did you run out of other things to do so you figure you'll stir up some shit
and you chose me as the target?

 VG> As for your comment "well my software includes a reference line so
 VG> that should tell you it's a reply" -> No usenet client will show
 VG> reference lines until or unless you actually bring up the post
 VG> itself.

wrong... i have news client software that will show all the header lines
without pulling the message body... the headers are pulled first so they are
available for whatever purposes as desired... the bodies of the messages the
user chooses to read are pulled later when the users selects those messages for
reading or saving to disk...

 VG> When displaying the contents of a given group in a linear
 VG> view, I'm not aware of any usenet client that will show anything
 VG> beyond the subject, author, and date of the post.

i can't help that you are not aware of such... i can't say one way or the other
if i am... it is not something i've gone looking for... it is not something
that i've had a need for, either... i suspect the same actually goes for you as
well...

 VG> And why does your software strip away any existing "Re: " in the
 VG> subject line when you reply to a reply?

AFAIK it does not but i will check that out especially for you... i will say,
though, that if it is, it is because "Re: " is not required... if it were
absolutely required, then the gateway software would ensure it was there to
meet the specifications... it would do this by detecting the REPLY and/or
References line as i noted before...

[edit] my reader/editor's documentation makes no mention of "Re: " at all...
nothing about adding it to or stripping it from replies... [/edit]

 VG> How can you (or anyone else here who is being an appologist for
 VG> you) explain that?

no one here is being an apologist for me... obviously you just aren't as
knowledgable as you think you are... i can only try to educate you in those
areas where you are ignorant and i am knowledgable...

 VG> It's one thing when your software doesn't add "Re: " when you reply
 VG> to the original (first) post of a thread.  It's yet something else
 VG> when your software *removes* the "Re: " when you reply to replies.  

 VG> How do you explain that?

"Re: " is not required... since it is not required, it may or may not be added
or stripped... now, let me ask you if it is wrong for a user to manually add or
remove "RE: " from an article's subject line?

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> It's one thing for his client software (which I think we know is
 VG> not telnet)

you are correct... telnet is a protocol ;)

 VG> to be ignorant of adding "Re: " to the subject line when replying  
 VG> to the original (first) post of a thread.

 VG> It's quite another thing for that same software to STRIP AWAY "Re:
 VG> " when replying to a reply.

 VG> How would you explain that?

because the editor or gateway software is coded to do that? makes sense to me
since "RE: " is not required...

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 F> I don't disagree with what you just wrote above, but if he were
 F> using  Telnet to post - *I* wouldn't be blaming his Telnet client
 F> for the  failure to comply to NNTP "convention" as opposed to NNTP
 F> "protocol".  

*APPLAUSE*  i have been known to do just that, too... especially to show
someone that what they thought they knew wasn't as accurate as they believed it
to be... i've made more than one person's mouth drop open while the watched
over my shoulder when i've done things like that... especially sending email
via telnet ;) :)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> It's also a piece of software you numb nut.

PLONK

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42
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 VG> When the RFC states that "Re: " SHOULD be used for replies, how can
 VG> that not be interpreted as a convention?

i pointed you toward the relevent document... please read it...

 VG> I don't know how much of usenet you experience (or have ever
 VG> experienced)  

my system has been on the 'net since the days of UUCP transfers and bang
paths... i've been on it longer than that...

 VG> using a "conventional" news reader, connected to the real  
 VG> internet, pulling postings from a real NNTP server, but if you
 VG> ever have - you would be very hard pressed to find any replies in
 VG> any newsgroup that don't use "Re: ".

[shrug]

 VG> And they also properly identify the person being replied to.  Your
 VG> posts do not do that.

my posts leave my system with a TO: field in them indicating exactly who i am
replying to... can i help it if news is broken in such a way that it has no TO:
field in it? ;) :P

 VG> Note how this post begins with "mark lewis wrote:".

i specifically do not use any of those and have them disabled in all of my
messaging software... even my newsreaders (eg: xnews, slrn, pan and a couple of
others)... they are of little use since the header should contain all the
information necessary... if one stops to think about news and why it is called
news, they will also understand why there is no TO: field as well as
understanding that these posts are articles like one would read in a
newspaper... thus the terms "news" and "articles"... you don't see articles in
the dead tree publications that start off with those attribution lines, do you?
;) ;) ;)

)\/(ark
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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42

 MW> On 05/06/2013 05:31 PM, Virus Guy wrote:
[...]
 MW> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U)

it is rather cute, isn't it :)

he musta known he'd lost the discussion/debate/argument when he started calling
me names... that's always the first sign that someone has lost :)

it is even funnier how he tries to bait me yet i'm supposedly in his
killfile... oh well...  

)\/(ark
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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42

VG> My god-damn 12-year-old Netscape Communicator knows to  
VG> automatically insert "Re: " into the subject line of a post when I  
VG> hit reply.  Why doesn't your software do that?

 D> His "god damn" xxx software probably has 10+ years on that...    

close... the date on the binary is 1995 ;)

VG> Where are your posts being seen - other than on usenet?

 D> A bbs. likely, a network of them.

yep!
  
VG> And why does your software strip away any existing "Re: " in the  
VG> subject line when you reply to a reply?

 D> Space limits. Not something you'd understand based on your questions
 D> so  far.

yeah, those limits are actually not of much concern any more but they were at
one time... not for me, so much, but back in the day when all this stuff was
being developed to allow folks to communicate and evolve into what we have
today...
  
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 D> You don't know what a BBS is? :)

obviously he doesn't have a clue... he must have been bored, too... i can't
think of any other reason why he would suddenly attack me when i've done
nothing to anyone here and have only been helpful to others... oh well... the
world is full of folks afflicted with rectal-cranial inversion syndrome or the
well known "ID 10 T" syndrome... doctors haven't been able to find a cure for
either one but they keep practising and trying :)

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Why does Mark Lewis not use "Re:" in subject line when replying?

+ User FidoNet address: 1:3634/12.42

 MW> On 05/07/2013 09:17 PM, Virus Guy wrote:
 VG> Mark Warner wrote:
 MW>>  
 MW>> Is that antique Netscape of yours not capable of posting with  
 MW>> full and proper attributions?
 VG>  
 VG> Why don't you tell me?

 MW> Didn't look like it upthread. PEBKAC error?

and he thinks that references control lines are attribution? :LOLOLOLOL:

[rhetorical]
why don't proper usenet (or even email) tools place the quoted poster's
initials in the quotes? fidonet has been doing that for years...

i won't even mention that fidonet has been using the internet before it was the
internet to transport fidonet traffic... that would be back in the 1985-1995 or
so era... it is how europe and australia were fed for a long time... that's not
even counting the other three zones (S.America, Africa, or Asia)...

Zone 1 - North America
Zone 2 - Europe
Zone 3 - Australia
Zone 4 - South America
Zone 5 - Africa
Zone 6 - Asia
[/rhetorical]

BTW: the proper quote initials have been added to the above as well ;) ;) ;)

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