The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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Ever had an email you send out come back at you as spam?  For example,
in your email to a friend, which let's assume is in unencrypted POP
server form, is sent by Outlook and has the words "walk in the park".
Then, in the next hour or so, you get spam that mentions "walk in the
park" along with the usual Viagra spam ad.  Your email back at you
with spam in it.

What causes this?  I once had to clean an infected computer that
displayed this symptom and it was a virus that manipulated Outlook
outgoing messages.  But my system is clean.  So one of two
possibilities:  some agent is listening to my outgoing email server,
and intercepting emails (since the emails are not encrypted), or, it's
just a coincidence that "walk in the park" was used, since it's a
somewhat common phrase.

Any other ideas?

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

RayLopez99 wrote:
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Maybe the person that you sent the e-mail to has an infestation.

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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Yes, I thought of that.  It occurred to me just after I posted.

On another note:  it is possible to send somebody's email to an "opt
in" spam site?  That is, analogous to a junk mail service, where you
can send (an enemy's) postal mail address to this service to get the
service to send junk mail to the postal mail address, is there
something equivalent in the internet world?  That way you can forward
an email to this site, and the person's email address will get
bombarded with spam.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something


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Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 16 May 2011 02:23:43 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99
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Most e-mail lists, online retailers, etc. send out a confirmation
e-mail to the address, asking them to confirm the request to be added
to the mailing list. No confirmation, no sign-up.

Keep in mind that most e-mail lists also provide date, time, IP
address, server info, browser details (i.e. User Agent) etc. of the
computer that sent the request to the webmaster, AND ALSO, within the
body copy of the confirmation e-mail. This makes it easy to "trap"
people that sign up others without their permission.

This is similar to an option in formmail, which webmasters use in
their "Contact Us" form. E.g., anyone who sends a message from the
contact form has info like the following included in their message:

**************************************************
 IP HOST:      xx.xx.xx.x.ca.privacy.net.invalid
IP ADDRESS:   xx.xxx.xxx.x
BROWSER:      Mozilla/4.0 blah blah blah

The following was submitted by Me (me@privacy.net.invalid) on Monday,
May 16, 2011 at 04:43:06 PDT.

Message: How much info about my computer was captured and included in
this message to you?
**************************************************

This is why most websites have a "Privacy Statement" page that tells
you this.

Anyone who signs people up to mailing lists, pr0n, etc. without their
permission is eventually going to get caught.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.1

iQA/AwUBTdD3jKRseRzHUwOaEQJhdQCeO89O6E6SMYhV57YqxTT5a46si60AoOEB
dN5o4DWJ6tN9ojjj8NgPoIjb
=fuGj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Laura Fredericks
PGP key ID - DH/DSS 2048/1024: 0xC753039A

usenet flamewars:
http://www.queenofcyberspace.com/usenet /

Remove CLOTHES to reply.

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

RayLopez99 wrote:
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Probably not so much for legitimate junk mail, but there are ways to get
an e-mail address noticed by spammers or worms that are harvesting
e-mail addresses. Here on Usenet is one such place, many samples of  the
"Swen" harvested the old fake e-mail address I used to use here.

None of that would explain the possible coincidence of the "walk in the
park" phrase, but you *did* say 'on another note'.

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

On Mon, 16 May 2011 02:23:43 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99

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    Probably someone listening, or with access to the mail
folders. BTW, why don't you use ssl on your emails. ? They will be
world readable otherwise.
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    Yes, it's possible, easy even.
    By the way, if that email address your headers is real, the
spambots have picked it up ions ago.
    []'s

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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Shadow can you tell me why SSL would work?  In the past I've never
used it, though it's available from my ISP.  SSL would only protect
the "first connection" from your PC to the ISP's server, correct?
Then it would have to be decoded to plain ASCII, no?  Otherwise, how
would a recipient (the final node in the link in the email chain), who
gets your email, be able to read it if it's SSL encrypted and that
person does not have an SSL enabled server?  Or is the assumption that
everybody in the world now (including those living in remote parts of
the world) has an SSL capable email server?  Thanks in advance or to
anybody else reading this.

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I know.  That's why my email account at Gmail is always full of spam,
but I only use this account for Google Groups.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

On Tue, 17 May 2011 04:38:06 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99

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    If you use gmail, and enable encryption,  your mail would go
ssl encrypted all the way to google. And encrypted from google to the
recipient's mail server.
     If the guy you wrote to accesses his mail without encryption,
sure, the mail will be delivered read-for-all. Could be easily sniffed
out.
    But it's almost impossible to find a server without
encryption, and most modern mail clients enable it by default.
    Check the port you use for mail. If it's 995/465 it's
encrypted. If it's 110/25 it's not.
    If you use a browser for mail, it should have the little lock
at the bottom, and an https:// header in the address bar. Some sites,
like hotmail, do not enable it by default, but you can do it in
preferences.
    Hope this helped.
    (won't go into MITM attacks)
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Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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So the assumption you are making--and I'm sure it's probably right--is
that nowadays all nodes (or email relays) between your ISP and the
target destination are accommodative of SSL, meaning they support
SSL.  Even if the 'guy you wrote to' has set his Outlook (remember, we
are talking about POP3 not IMAP/browser based email clients) to port
110/25, the other 'chains in the link' will accommodate SSL and up to
the last "guy you wrote to" your email will be encrypted and not
readable by the world.  That is I suppose a fair assumption, but just
to keep things as simple as possible I've always used unencrypted
email in the past.  And, like the above indicates (if I am correct),
at some point in the chain, if your destination uses 110/25 (i.e. does
not encrypt his POP3 connection) then the email will be unencrypted at
this last link and available to the world to see, correct?  Meaning
the "guy you wrote to"'s ISP will be able to read your email.


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I see.  This is the key assumption.  Anybody else care to verify this,
please feel free to.  I will research the issue online a bit more and
then probably switch to SSL

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Yes, this is what my ISP also says, thank you.

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I don't use browser for mail except at Hotmail, which is my IMAP
account but Outlook is my main email POP3 client.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

On Wed, 18 May 2011 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99

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    Anyone with permission to look at the mailbox at the ISP can
read the mail. SSL is used only during the transmission.
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    www.gawab.com does not use encryption. Probably the only big
one that does not.
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    Well use it, there are no disadvantages
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    Just change the settings
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Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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We seems to have a minor disconnect, unless I'm mistaken.  You are
referring to gawab.com as apparently an email client that works
through the browser (from what I can tell from their website).  I am
referring to the ISP email server.  I think every ISP email server in
the chain of email servers going from the sender to the recipient in
an SSL secured email has to support SSL or your email will not be
transmitted properly.  So my question was:  is 99.9999% of the world's
email servers "SSL capable"?  If so, then you have no or almost no
worries using SSL in your Outlook email program.  If not, there's a
chance somebody in some remote part of the world (say Zimbabwe) will
not be able to read an email of your sent by SSL.

Also consider this:  somebody on the net said that SSL encrypted email
is secure in transit, but, it is not secure (and unencrypted) while
sitting on an email server.  This person claims that many of the email
breaches (i.e., people reading your email) occur while this
unencrypted email is sitting on some email server, not when it is in
transit.  So SSL encrypted email is of limited use in this case.
Agree or disagree?

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

On Fri, 20 May 2011 05:38:40 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99

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    Gawab allows pop connections, ports 110 and smtp port 25 only.
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    I would say that  99.9999% of ISPs have ssl. A handfull do not
use ssl on their mail servers.( So they receive mail from google with
ssl, but users have to use unencrypted connections to access it -
risking password stealing and privacy issues)
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    No. ISP employees would quickly get the sack if found selling
OP's mail details. The easiest way to get someone's email  if the
person uses ports 110 or 25, is to plug a sniffer into the cable or
sniff the wireless,They could sniff out your password that way too.
    If you use ssl, the only practical way would be with a MITM
attack, and only if you accept the rogue certificate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-in-the-middle_attack
    I wouldn't worry too much about those. If a box pops up in
your email client asking if you accept a new certificate, just say no,
then call the ISP.
    []'s

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Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

4ax.com:

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Hi Shadow,


I've noticed you are taking some time and going into specific detail to
help him out. I appreciate the effort on your behalf, but I think it's
time to go ahead and tell you, SSL has been explained to death (google if
you'd like) to this individual before. The efforts were a washout. The
guy is essentially humouring you at this point and will soon resort to
his typical nasuating "I know more than you" insults.

Just didn't want to see you wasting too much more time on this pointless
discussion. He won't google anything.


--
Why drink the water from my hand?
Contagious as you think I am
Just tilt my sun towards your domain
Your cup runneth over again

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something


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STFU ASS.  You R an idiot.  The thread you are thinking of was on the
mechanics of SSL, not on whether SSL is used by email servers.  And
BTW you did little to explain SSL--I pretty much had to figure it out
myself with a help of a few others.


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Water from your hand?  F* no.  You are full of diseases not even
modern medicine can cure.  HIV/AIDS is just the tip of the iceberg.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something


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If you understood SSL, you would know the concept is the same across
both platforms. You didn't do well figuring SSL out as I recall.
Instead, you continued to argue with those who were trying to explain
the process. Either way, you know about as much now about it as you did
then. IE: nothing.
 


--
Why drink the water from my hand?
Contagious as you think I am
Just tilt my sun towards your domain
Your cup runneth over again

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something


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OK thank you, it seems then that SSL is indeed 'safe to use' in email
for communicating with nearly everybody on the planet.

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OK, I agree for 99.9% of the cases, but if the emails are exclusive
enough (say some mailing list of billionaires) or extensive enough
(say 20M users) then selling the emails might be worth getting
sacked... or even risk going to prison.  But generally speaking I
agree this is a good deterrent, especially now that it's hard to find
a job.


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Really?  Never heard of this.  Is it possible for a rogue employee to
plug a sniffer (and what sort of hardware is that?  Who sells it?)
into a cable at the ISP?

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Yes, this is common--hence I use an anonymizer when I'm using
wireless.  This anonymizer uses https, but keep in mind the email
would be unencrypted (via the https tunnel) when it lands at my ISP's
email server.

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OK, thanks, that was useful.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

RayLopez99 wrote:
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But it doesn't stop people from reading your e-mail.

To prevent that, you will want to encrypt it.

[...]

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

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OK, I take this to mean that SSL is only for encrypting the transport
layer, and therefore once on the server an email encrypted by SSL is
in plaintext, and therefore readable (at the server)?  Please correct
me if I'm wrong.

BTW, what programs work with Outlook to encrypt email "end to
end" (without the need for SSL)?  I recall a PGP (Pretty Good Privacy)
plugin for Outlook.  If you know of others please let me know.  Or if
there are other email readers with end-to-end encryption, though the
problem will be the recipient has to have this email reader at their
end, and nowadays most people use Outlook it seems.

RL

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

RayLopez99 wrote:
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That's correct. Another way to look at it is that SSL doesn't encrypt
the e-mail, it encrypts the session(s).

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I can't help you there, but I assume that any modern e-mail client can
work with it for signing messages as well as for encrypting them.

Re: The infamous email shuffle words virus or something

On Sat, 21 May 2011 04:45:39 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99


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    Employees here in Brazil regularly sell email addresses, it's
a bloody nuisance. But only on the free email servers. I get a ton of
spam on them, my filters handle most of it, though.
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    No, anyone could put a hub on your cable, anywhere between
your home and the ISP, and sniff out your mail, anything you do.They
could even set up a laptop and capture every single bit of data, or
launch a MITM attack. Like I said, unless you have very sensitive
data, don't worry about it.
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    Anonymizer ? Which one ?
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    This page runs you through how to setup most email clients
using TSL or SSL
 http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=13287
    It's for google, but can be applied to most mail clients.
Don't forget to change your password after you start encrypting. If
someone was sniffing you, while you used ports 25 and 110, he could
still access your mail using encryption if he has your passwd.
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