Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

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Well, I'm not an internet newbie, but soon I'll be switching to a high
speed connection for the first time.  (cable).  I've been reading
through old posts in this newsgroup and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed
as if there's no real way to rest assured my PC is protected.  I
couldn't find a FAQ for this group, so I'll gladly go do more research
if my questions are too basic.  In this case a link or reference is
appreciated along with the flame.

Bascially, what I do on my PC is browse the web and stream online radio
(via WMP) but I have a son who will ocassionally play online games.
Although I've been very strict about pirated sofware, every once in a
while he gives into temptation usually via a friend's CD rather than
directly downloaded from the Internet.  I don't think it's an issue
anymore, but there's always that slight doubt with teenagers.
Furthermore,  I am not on any kind on LAN.  I don't do any kind of
instant messaging.  I have occasionally used IE in FTP mode just to
upload images to a personal website.  (It's just a basic webpage for
family to see all ISP based).  I try to keep plug-ins and 3rd party
apps to a minimum.  I'm on XP (regularly updated) and I use M$ software
like Outlook Express, IE6 and WMP.  I currently use Zone Alarm.  I
haven't consistently used anti-virus software but I ocassionally
download and run anti-spyware and anti-trojain software.  So far I've
never had a problem, but I guess I've just been lucky.

While I would hate to have to deal with all the problems of a virus
infection, by far my primary concern is security from someone
discovering the username and password I use to log into financial
websites like my local bank or to check my investments.  (I only have a
few thousand invested but it's my money and I'd like to keep it that
way).

To my understanding, due to high encryption, the only practical way for
a hacker to steal my username and password would be for them to install
a text-capturing-application (via some kind of trojain) and have it run
while I log in then phone home later.  Is this bascially true?

To my understanding there are other things I can do to promote
security, including:

Get a dynamic IP Address.

Get a router even though I don't have a LAN because the router will
help keep my PC anoynmous, almost like an dynamic IP.  Not sure how
this works.

Get a good Firewall.  (I currently run Zone Alarm).  For best security
is it better to get a hardware Firewall or is an updated software
firewall just as good?

Other than turning the power off, is there a good simple (automated?)
method for turning off internet access during times when there is no
reason to be online?  My firewall (ZA) has a panic button to block all
incoming and outgoing transfers.  Assuming my firewall hasn't been
compromised, does this offer the same protection as not being online at
all?

I'd rather keep using IE and OE and WMP because they are well supported
and help me to avoid unecessarly hassles with viewing pages or using
the internet.  I feel comfortable using these apps so long as I keep
them updated.

I have enough componets to build a second PC.  I've been considering
keeping a second PC on hand just for using to check my bank account and
to check my investments.  (I would still use my regular PC for internet
shopping. I figure if I get hacked and my credit card is compromised at
least that's fraud protected.)

When I use it I figure I'll directly hook up my secondary PC (rather
than going through a LAN).  I'll set it to automatically update my OS
and my firewall, virus checker, etc... and then I'll only go online
long enough to check my account then shut the computer down and
disconnect again.  Is is a practical idea or am I just being paranoid?
Will I be able to use anti-virus software on two different PCs in this
manner or will most companies require me to buy to licenses?

Beyond that what does a hacker look for when port scanning or otherwise
invading a PC.  Assuming I ever do get compromised is there anything I
can do to make my local computer look less inviting?  In other words,
what do hackers look for?  How much is protection about keeping
yourself hidden verses protecting yourself AFTER you've been hacked or
been infected with a trojain?  If I understand better what Hackers are
looking for I might be able to make myself look like less of a target.

Given my concerns and the old posts I've read from this newsgroup, I'm
leaning towards Kaspersky for an anti-virus program.  However, scanning
for trojains every hour seems very excessive and draining to processing
power.

All comments welcome, including those that redirect me to good links
for more homework.  

Thanks


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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Start with a router in front of that PC before you ever connect. Keep
the software firewall, too, so you can have a sense of what is trying to
call out as well.

You will have a dynamic IP address, but it may not change often. I've
had my RoadRunner IP since probably February. Nothing wrong with that.

Here's some suggestions:
http://k75s.home.att.net/tips.html

--
   -bts
   -Warning: I brake for lawn deer

Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

I've been overwhelmed by the response here and I'm trying to really
look into these links before responding.  I've used Web Washer in the
past.  I think I'll make good use out of your host file.

I'm looking into a good router.

Thanks

Jim


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 26 May 2006 07:55:53 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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Playing online games is risky since you have to "drop your pants and
bend over to be shafted" no matter how you go about it. Even with
a external router/firewall, you have to lower security via port
forwarding which is not a wise thing to do.  

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Make sure you use the latest XP service pack and install all critical
security patches for Windows, IE and OE. The use of automatic
Windows Update service is a good idea. I hope you know to set
IE security settings options, and I hope you've set OE to work
wiith text-only (no html email).

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Do yourself a favor and purchase a external router/firewall since
it will always be there for you.

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You are asking newbie type questions which means you are not ready
to not use a good antivirus product running in the background. Also,
since you allow others to use your PC you should have a good av
running set to auto-update. Security is only as good as the knowledge
of the  individual in the driver's seat. So you have to do what you
can in the way of good security software and hardware in the
circumstances you describe.

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You seem to be alluding to infestations of malware such as RATs
(Remote Access Trojans). That sort of thing you prevent by not
allowing malicious code to run on your PC, which requires practicing
"safe hex" ...  and in your case using a good antivirus product, a
external firewall/router, and keeping up to date with critical
security patches.  
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That's a good idea.

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No, that's not the reason at all. Your IP address must be public or
you wouldn't be able to browse the internet. The reason you use
a firewall is that you will have many open internet ports by default
with XP. That means there are many servers available and you are
a sitting duck for hackers and for internet malware that automatically
seeks out open ports ... open doorways to your machine. The advantage
of dynamic IP is that at least your IP changes once in awhile ... when
you reboot the modem or shut down and boot back up. That means
a dedicated hacker that "has your number" will have more difficulty
pinning you down. But that sort of thing is more of just a theoretical
consideration than anything to be concerned with for home users.
 
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As I've already mentioned, a external appliance is better since it is
"always there" and thus affords much more reliability.

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Power down the modem, but there's no real point in doing so as long
as you use a external router/firewall.

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No, you should never rely on software since it may have
vulnerabilities which can be exploited. Rely instead on a external
router/firewall.

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See above concerning keeping them patched and paying attention to
their optional settings for best security.

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You might also consider the use of a backup hard drive on a removeable
tray so the backup can normally either be shut off or stored on a
shelf.

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A external router/fw will allow you to share your wideband service
between the two machines, and both will have its firewall protection.
You can elect to have file and printer sharing or not. It would be
a good idea to takes the same security precautions on the second
machine as on the first.

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Open internet ports are the easy targets and your only real concern.

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Don't keep any personal information on your PCs such as Social
Security numbers and credit card numbers.

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I don't know of any version of KAV that requires such a thing. The new
KAV 6 will nag you initially until you let it do a scan of all your
drives/paritions. Then it "shuts up" and it won't bother you again.

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Thanks for the long reply, Art.

Can you elaborate a little more on what makes online gaming insecure or
is it enough to say that you just can't have a secure system if there
is online gaming going on?

I plan to have XP autoupdate but I don't always do it now becuase with
dial-up it can be a real drag when I don't have time to deal with it.
As for OE, I don't have the preview pane on and I never open any
attachments.  I don't know if it's text only, but I'll look into it.
Sometimes I get emails from friends with colors or different font
sizes.  I'll look into it.  I'm guessing this is about security holes
and spammers calling home via some images.

I will get a external hardware firewall.  Sounds like an all around
good idea.  But I guess I should also keep using a software based
firewall too.  I can't say I've tried many, but I've been happy with
Zone Alarm (free version).  Does a hardware firewall require updating
the way a software based on does?

Another thing I need to shed is my ignorance regarding routers and
external firewalls.  I guess they are essentially the same thing?  The
router, like a software firewall, keeps only certain ports open while
closing or hiding those that aren't needed.  I can see the advantage of
a router/firewall, but they do the same thing as a software based one,
right?

I'm heeding your warning about M$ software.  My wife doesn't get on as
much and I'm leering of using software that she's unfamiliar with or
that doesn't have all the bells and whistles she expects when browsing.
 That said, I do try to keep IE a sort of plain jane.  I'm currently
looking into other options.

I like your idea of a back up hard drive as an alternative so an actual
second PC.  Might be nice if I could hot swap them somehow.  I'll have
to look into that more.

Didn't mean to bad mouth KAV.  I wanna say I read it in a review
somewhere that it scans every hour, but that was, at worst, probably
just a feature that could be enabled by choice.

If I download, update and run the top 3 or 4
anti-spyware/anti-trojain/anti-malware type apps and I come up clean,
is it pretty safe to assume that (at least for the time being) I'm free
of malware?  Or is there just too much of it outthere that isn't
tracked?

I'm a little confused about the "user" accounts as used by XP.  I only
have one user account.  Is that different from the administrator
account, if there is such a thing?  I know I have full privledges as
the user account so it's never been a functional problem.  I've heard
you should set a password for loggging in but would be a real bother to
type it in every time I restart the computer.  Other than that, what
are the security issues surrounding user accounts for XP, if any, and
what is considered the wisest approach?  One thing I've notice from
anti-spyware scanners is that I'll get tracking cookies that track me
by my user account name.  I always wipe them clean, but the next time I
get caught by one I assume they just pick up from where they left off.
 Is there a way to change just your user account name in XP while
keeping everything else exactly the same?

Wow, there's so much good information here.   I've read through most of
the other posts already and I'm trying to be prompt in my replies but
I'm trying to do a little background on the info and terms so I'm not
wasting everyone's time asking terribly basic questions.  I'm very
happy with the hospitality of this group and I really am trying to
respond to other posters as soon as I can but first I'm trying do a
little researching, digesting, and thought gathering.

Thanks again Art.


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 29 May 2006 19:51:43 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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You posed a long set of questions :)

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There's no such thing as a secure system. There are just degrees of
security ... "more secure" and "less secure". I was pointing out that
online gaming is "less secure" than if you avoid it. Here's a paste of
something I found on the port forwarding you have to do with a
router in order to do online gaming:
************************************************
Port Forwarding

If you have a server or gaming system on the inside of your network
that needs to be accessible from the internet the router has to be
configured to support this connection. This generally includes
pointing incoming requests to a specific port and IP address of an
internal machine. However, be forewarned that any port forwarding you
configure essentially opens up a small door in your firewall. Assuming
the forwarding is properly configured, the risk is minimal; however,
an inexperienced user could inadvertently open their entire network up
to an attacker.
***********************************************
So it's a matter of assuming higher risk (less security).  

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Yes.  

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Not sure why you would want to keep on using a sw fw. What would
be your purpose?

One purpose is logging outbound traffic. For that, I sometimes use
the  free version of Sygate since it has a terrific traffic log. It's
one of the tools I use to check for undetected spyware and malware
that "calls out".

But it serves no preventative purpose, as such.

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Neither should require updating. In fact, the last free version of
Sygate will never be updated. It may be possible to update the
firmware in some external applicances. I dunno. But it's
certainly not something that requires regular updating.

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Inexpensive external router/fw products for the home user market
essentially combine NAT and firewall functions. Unsolicited inbound
attempts are blocked.

If you decide to use wireless, that opens up another pandora's
box of security considerations and complications. But other than
that, I can say that  my LinkSys wreless router/fw has worked out
well for my purposes and situation.

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Not even a expert can determine for sure whether or not your PC is
clean. Perfection in this sort of thing simply doesn't exist. You just
do the best you can.

<skip XP accounts questions>

I suggest that you post different questions in different posts.
Keeping on one topic at a time would be of far more benefit to
you and those reading the posts. I think you'd get more thorough
and better responses.

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg



Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Tahnk again for the help... I'll try to wind things down.


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I understand where you're coming from.  Does the above comment just
apply to hosting an online game or do you have the same problems simply
by logging into a public server?   Just by playing the game there is
constant uploading and downloading going on.

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Functionally, I'd be happy with FF, OE or even modzilla's integrated
email.  I'll look into it more.   It would be nice to get something
that can automatically patch itself.  The kind of securities holes we
are talking about are, by their nature, generally immune to the
firewall, right?

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As you say a sw fw would be good for watching what's going out.  With
ZA I get a pop up anytime anything new wants internet access.  It also
keeps a log of who's pinging or probing my ports.  Not sure how useful
this is but I suppose I'd never see that information anymore unless the
hw fw has a way of reporting it.

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I thought perhaps a sw ff might have a bug or some other issue that
could be exploited if not updated.  If software runs a hw fw in anyway,
I was thinking this might also be possible.

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understood.


Well, what is the range on a wireless router/fw?  In terms of your
typical wireless, unless someone is sitting just outside my house with
a lap top are they really close enough to tap into my transmissions?

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understood.  I sure appreicate your frank no BS answers.

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I'm sure that's true.  I need to do a little homework first anyway.


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Thanks!


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 31 May 2006 10:14:43 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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You are putting your trust in the game server, which is not a wise
thing to do. Remember, It can download malware as well as
games.

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Forget that. Just update to the latest versions.

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Yes, they are a different kind of consideration. We're talking
software vulnerabilites such as buffer overruns which the bad
guys exploit.

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I've read that hackers using portable high gain antennas can work up
to 4 miles away. Be aware that the usual 128 bit WEP encryption can
be cracked in minutes by hackers. That means they can monitor your
internet traffic and cause disruptions of it. They can also spy. So
anyone interested in high security internet for say, finanacial
transactions, should either use cable connections or forms of high
security wireless. And no, I know little about the latter so please
don't ask me  :)

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 29 May 2006 19:51:43 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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As an afterthought, perhaps I should mention that there are quite a
number of utilities available for checking a machine, some of which
are easy enough for average users, and some which aren't. Without
being very specific or supplying urls at this point, the rootkit
detction utils from F-Secure and SysInternals come to mind as easy-to-
use. But the best method for rootkit checks is to do formal av
scanning, which means the use of a alternate operating system while
doing the scan. It seems to me though, that expecting average users
to build something like a Bart CD is a bit much :) The NT based OS
such as Win 2K and XP have made life very difficult in this regard.

Also, many of the other utilities available for general or generic
malware checking aren't suitable for average users. They require
knowledge of what a normal or clean machine "looks like" in certain
details, including portions of the registry.

I don't mean to make too much of this, though, or in any way induce
paranoia. In practice, "safe hex" and some basic prevention knowledge
goes a very long way.

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Thanks art.  That does sound a little overwhelming for me at this
point, but I'd rather know the options.  I'll look into the roolkit
stuff and safe hex too.

Jim

Art wrote:
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Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 29 May 2006 19:51:43 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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I've thought about putting something up at my web site concerning the
creation of and use of a bootable cloned backup drive. For the NT
based OS (Win 2K and XP) the freeware util XXCLONE works well for
the purpose of creating a bootable (file system) cloned backup. I've
used it on my Win 2K machines with both FAT32 and NTFS many times
during my evaluation period, and it never missed a beat.

There are several considerations involved with this. First of all,
it's a good idea to maintain just a relatively small partition to
contain only Windows + Program Files. I'll call this the "Main
Partition" and refer to it as MP. It needs to be just a few
gig, so a suitable backup drive can be as small as, say, 6 gig.
Then cloning and restore operations take a small amount
of time ... maybe 10 minutes or so ... and it cuts down on
the cost of the backup drive.

People who collect tons of large multimedia files should keep
them on a separate large partition and back them them up,
if they wish, on CD.

Now, users who continually try out programs (such as freeware
buffs) and accumulate many they want to keep aren't really
suited very well to MP cloning since they are continually
faced with the not-so-easy problem of determining whether
or not their MP is clean before backing up (recloning). The
method is best used by those who wish to maintain a almost
static backup which rarely, if ever, needs recloning. The best
bet is to clone the MP immediately after a fresh install of
Windows followed by a Windows Update to make sure it has
all the service packs, rollups, and critical security patches
installed. You can also install your favorite applications
programs. Providing you did all this while behind your
router/fw the chances are very slim that you will be backing
up malware of any kind.

There are other considerations as well. Some users, such as
my wife, accumulate valuable data they want to keep via
email (tons of stuff from genealogy forums). The way I've
arranged for her to backup this data, is via a separate
"daily backup" hard drive. Hard drives are far more reliable
than CD, and if I ever have to restore her MP it's a simple
matter of swapping the backup drive that's in her removeable
drive tray. Thus, we maintain two kinds of backup ... a static
one for her MP which sits on a shelf, and a dynamic one for
her data which she uses for daily backup. For daily backup,
I use the freeware XXCOPY. While her accumulated data
of various kinds seems like a lot, it only amounts to a few
hundred meg, and again, a small capacity backup drive
is more than sufficient. The key lock on the removeable
drive is also a electrical power switch to the drive which
is considered "hot switchable" ... it's safe to turn it on
and off while the machine is powered up. There is a risk
involved with the daily backup since it would be possible
for destructive malware to attack data during the backup
operation. This is one good place to use a top notch
updated realtime av monitor. But in fact, she doesn't
bother, and we've never had any problems. Safe hex
goes a long way :)

Concerning the hardware arrangement, the backup drive
is connected as a secondary master, which requires a
separate drive cable if your machine doesn't have one.
The BIOS on my machines can be set to boot from that
backup drive by setting the BIOS to try booting from
HDD1 first. Then the backup becomes drive C: and
restoration to HDD0 (which contains the MP) is a
matter of cloning C: to E: (or whatever the MP drive
letter turns out to be on your machine).

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Regarding your MP idea I've been doing exactly that.  If I ever get to
a point that I want to backup my OS, I reboot my last backup, make the
new changes (and updates) and save the image.

As for the rest, I've saved and filed your post.  I like your
solutions, particularly the hot swappable option.  I'm gonna have to
take another look at everything and reconsider my options.

BTW Art, what do you use for browser, email client, and usenet?  (I
figured KAP as your fw)

Jim


Art wrote:
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Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 31 May 2006 10:41:48 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

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Favorite browser of the moment is Opera. I've never used anything
but Free Agent for newsgroups. Email is Thunderbird. I already
mentioned that I only use Sygate fw once in awhile since I don't
need a fw with my wireless router.

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

On 26 May 2006 07:55:53 -0700, jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:

BTW, this XP survival guide might be of interest:

http://www.sans.org/rr/whitepapers/windows/1298.php

Art
http://home.epix.net/~artnpeg


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

jimrainfordson@yahoo.com wrote:
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Start with the biggest risk and work down.  Your biggest risk is your
son, so isolate the risk by giving him his own PC.

Next is the outer perimeter.  A router will offer you the protection
you require.

Inside the perimeter you have the PCs interface.  Software firewalls
will alert you to incoming and outgoing issues, don't forget that you
still need to protect yourself from your son's PC which is also INSIDE
the outer perimeter, hence the software firewall.

On the PCs you will have the usual bunch of anti-virus, anti-spyware
etc.  I know it is difficult to move from IE, but I would strongly
recommend going through the pain of swapping to Firefox.  It has been
one of the better things that I have done to lessen the chances of
being a browser victim.  You *can* secure IE, but just try FF for a
month.

The bottom line is that without going over the top you can be as secure
as is practical, just watch out for that unpredictable human interface
though ;)


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Ed  typed:
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PBKAC is the weakest link!
http://www.cryer.co.uk/glossary/p/pbkac.htm

Firefox Myths:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/SupportCD/FirefoxMyths.html



Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

YoKenny wrote:

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I didn't say it was secure, I said it lessens the chances of being a
victim, your average user would be less vulnerable using an alternative
to IE.


Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Ed wrote:

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From that page:

"All Myths relate to running the default install of Firefox in Windows
with no Extensions."

Is it a myth that a default install of Firefox is less secure than a
default install of IE?

Some of those "myths" are not worth the explanation.

Myth - "Firefox Achieved 10% Market Share in 2005"
and we all know how accurate browser stats are. WebSideStory is used by
my ISP to try to measure stats; it is an intrusive piece of code added
to each page, and doesn't measure anything if JavaScript is off.

Not mentioned is that Firefox can be set to report itself as IE to get
past the clueless browser sniffers on many thousands of web pages. I ran
into one today that rejected Firefox - and Opera - and told me I needed
to *upgrade* to IE 4 or Netscape 4.76.

"Firefox is anything but Secure with multiple unpatched vulnerabilities"

Firefox: http://secunia.com/product/4227 /
He says Firefox has 97 vulnerabilities, 63 critical and 1 extremely
critical, while the Secunia page says:
Currently, 4 out of 31 Secunia advisories, are marked as "Unpatched" in
the Secunia database. (3% Extremely Critical)

IE:      http://secunia.com/product/11 /
Currently, 21 out of 101 Secunia advisories, are marked as "Unpatched"
in the Secunia database. (14% Extremely Critical)

And we know that Firefox issues patches faster than IE.

"Firefox does not Block all Pop-ups."
Well, I just ran through each an every test listed there, and did not
get a single popup window in Firefox. Yes, JavaScript was on. Firefox
was kind enough to place the small bar at the top of the window that
says "Firefox has blocked a popup window" (because I have that option
set).

IE doesn't block any popups.  :-)

And the list goes on, but dinner is ready.

--
   -bts
   -Warning: I brake for lawn deer

Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

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I get a couple popups a month with Fire Fox. I can live with that,
especially considering how the blasted things would nearly take over my
old IE install. I had to actually pull the phone cord and reboot, once.

I have not figured out how to deal with that blasted thing to the right
on this site, though:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/mallard.asp

I call that sort of thing a "house cat", because it sort of lays on top
of what I'm trying to look at.

Re: Another Newbie asking "Which Anti-Virus Sofware is the Best?"

'offbreed' wrote, in part:
| I have not figured out how to deal with that blasted thing to the right
| on this site, though:
|
| http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/mallard.asp
|
| I call that sort of thing a "house cat", because it sort of lays on top
| of what I'm trying to look at.
_____

No pop-ups or ads when I try that site with Internet Explorer.  I use an ad
blocker program 'Super Ad Blocker' that so far has blocked all inserted ads
(pop-ups, banners, animation.)  Not only does it block ads, it prevents the
ad content from downloading, and thus some pages download quite a bit
faster.  A 30 trial is free, after that the cost is $30.  It is at least
worth a trial to see what surfing could be like.

Phil Weldon

| Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
|
| > "Firefox does not Block all Pop-ups."
| > Well, I just ran through each an every test listed there, and did not
| > get a single popup window in Firefox. Yes, JavaScript was on. Firefox
| > was kind enough to place the small bar at the top of the window that
| > says "Firefox has blocked a popup window" (because I have that option
| > set).
| >
| > IE doesn't block any popups.  :-)
|
| I get a couple popups a month with Fire Fox. I can live with that,
| especially considering how the blasted things would nearly take over my
| old IE install. I had to actually pull the phone cord and reboot, once.
|
| I have not figured out how to deal with that blasted thing to the right
| on this site, though:
|
| http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/mallard.asp
|
| I call that sort of thing a "house cat", because it sort of lays on top
| of what I'm trying to look at.



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