No alts in firefox? - Page 2

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Re: No alts in firefox?

Uncle Pirate wrote:
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If you want to see where uncle pirates website stands out look at source
code. His HTML is neatly formatted and easy to read. It's a great
example of what well written HTML should like.
Keeping your code neat makes it easier to maintain and easier for others
to maintain. Maintainability is also why you should be writing the HTML
to the W3C spec. So others know what to expect when they have to look at
your source or maintain it in the future.

Frank Vanhoof
Software Engineer NSWCCD

Re: No alts in firefox?

jake schrieb:

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in fact it's a purely a wrong implementation: if you are a webdesigner
you want your 'alt' texts as alternative texts for UAs which do not show
any images, hence text browsers. And you use your 'title' as the title
of your image which will be visible TOGETHER with the image information
(hence accompaigning content to the images content).
For example take an image explaining how an e-commerce ordering
proceudre works. In your alt tag you would then describe this procedure
in text-form (because your audiance will not see the image, only the
alt-tag info). Further you ommit the title tag as it will not be
necessary for you image.
Now go figure how smart it is, if IE shows the 'alt' for this image...

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Re: No alts in firefox?

 jake wrote:

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Only if an image or place holder is in existance.
If the user has "show place holders" turned off, nothing is shown.
firefox does it right.

Re: No alts in firefox?


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Bad decision. IMHO, for two reasons:

Firstly, it breaks the standard, albeit a de facto standard. _You_
might not like IE, but the web is a public medium - there's a lot of
people out there who use it, and who have become used to how it works.
Firefox shouldn't mess with their expectations without a good reason.
This isn't a question of interpreting standards, it's a question of
user familiarity.

Secondly there's the standards issue. IE's tooltip behaviour wasn't
required by the standard, but nor was it wrong. It wasn't perhaps the
best interpretation (it should make better use of the title
attribute), but it's reasonable.  Where IE was obviously broken (such
as the CSS box model) then it's reasonable for Firefox to correct this
behaviour, despite the consequences for compatibility. In the case of
alt/title though, there's no such standards-based argument for
becoming so different from IE's behaviour.

What both Firefox and IE should do is to present title as a pop-up, if
present (the Firefox behaviour). If it's not present, but alt is
present, then alt should be presented instead (the IE behaviour).
This operates as a "best of both worlds" solution (not even a
compromise) and presents no problem to authors.  I hope that at least
one will fix itself.

What authors should now do is to update their pages (sadly so, but
it's necessary to give Firefox users an equal experience). As well as
checking that images have an alt text, we should now go through and
check that they also have a title attibute, should one be relevant. Of
course this is something that good design had done anyway, but it's
pretty rare.  If alt is set to an empty string (the "eye candy"
value), title should generally be omitted, rather than set to an empty

Smert' spamionam

Re: No alts in firefox?

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IE is broken. Just because it does something and the majority of folks use
it doesn't make it correct.

"ALT" is short for ALTERNATE... Either show the GRAPHIC or show the TEXT,
not both.

Re: No alts in firefox?

Andy Dingley wrote:
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FYI, IE has supported TITLE -- the proper attribute -- for a long, long
time, so in recent years it has been only sloppy designers who use ALT
wrongly and so create problems.

Also FYI, the standard is established by the W3C, of which Microsoft is
a member.

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Conforming with standards is a good reason, as it reduces the cost of
making sites while helping to ensure cross-browser predictability.

As for people becoming used to how browsers act:  if designers had
started out using TITLE when it was first supported by IE, there would
be no problem.  So it is not Firefox creating a problem:  it is sloppy
designers creating a problem.

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Opera goes one further.  It lets the user decide whether to have ALTs
and/or TITLEs as tooltips:  you can even pick both.

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Again, it is not Firefox creating a problem.  It is sloppy -- or
incompetent -- designers who have created a problem.

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It would be reasonable for a lint type of tool to do this, optionally.

Re: No alts in firefox?

C A Upsdell > wrote:
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Which is quite ironic, really, seeing as Microsoft's browser is the
least standards-compliant of them all.

I would imagine Microsoft is a member of the W3C mainly so that they can
exert pressure and push their proprietary HTML stuff (or buggy
interpretations) into the standards.


Re: No alts in firefox?

Oli Filth wrote:
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Actually, if you review the history of browsers, you will note that IE4,
  IE5, IE5.5, and IE6 were the most standards-compliant browsers of
their times.  Unfortunately Microsoft issues new versions of IE with new
versions of Windows, and since there have been no new versions of
Windows since XP, further improvements in IE standards must await
Longhorn, which will appear LONG after XP appeared.

So IE6 only looks bad because other browsers have kept on improving
while IE has stalled.

Re: No alts in firefox?

C A Upsdell wrote:

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I think it did in some 5.x version or something, but I don't think it does
any more. (Or if it does, it's an ini-file setting, there is no GUI
preference for it.)

Opera displays the TITLE attribute only for images.

Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me  ~

Re: No alts in firefox?

Toby Inkster wrote:
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Damn, you're right.  I remember finding it useful to enable both ALT and
TITLE tooltips for testing pages.  Sigh.

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