HTML old newbie

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I use Frontpage, mainly because I have it, but there is lots written about
how it has lots of bloat etc. I am playing with both DWeaver (and
Nvu/Composer) to see how they compare.
My site (below) is mainly pictures and links.
There are two things FP does that I see no alternative to in either DW or
Nvu, well not without learning html and I'm too long in the tooth for that:
these are rollover colour change in link (essential) and the ability to
have fancy titles without going back to a graphics program (FP uses
If I insist on these two things do I simply have to live with the bloat or
am I not looking in the right place?
Jim on Tyneside UK
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Re: HTML old newbie

Jim Scott wrote:
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DW or
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WordArt - classy.  Download something like XaraX (http:/
for graphics.  It's reasonably priced and user friendly.

As for roll-over colour change, that's hardly essential, but it's easy
to do with CSS.  Google for something along the lines of "CSS link
hover colour change". is a great, free HTML editor that will do you
far more favours than FP or DW will until you're more familiar with the



Re: HTML old newbie

Jim Scott wrote:
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Bloat is an understatement.

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Generally, if you use any WYSIWYG editor, you're bound to end up with
major issues due to the fact you're trying to edit a non-presentational
language using a presentational tool.  Unfortunately, good HTML requires
semantic markup which simply cannot come from the use of a WYSIWYG tool
without a lot of knowledge and experience of handcoding well structured
and semantic markup.

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There's still no reason for the excessive use of layout tables and
presentational elements and attributes.

Compare the markup generated with frontpage with this sample of the kind
of markup *required* to produce a page like yours.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
" ">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<title>Jim's Homepage</title>

<div id="header">
<h1>Jim's Website</h1>
<img src="/images/tn_Northunbria_flag_small.jpg" alt="..." height="44"
<img src="/images/jimsmall48.jpg" alt="..." height="56" width="48">

<ul id="photos">
<li><a href="#"><img src="image" alt="" height="50" width="50"> Local
<li><a href="#"><img src="image" alt="" height="50" width="50"> Jim's

<!-- Add a new list item for each image and link -->


<ul id="other-links">
<li><a href="#">LOCAL LINKS</a></li>
<li><a href="#">CHRIST CHURCH BELLRINGERS' PAGES</a></li>
<li><a href="#">FAMILY</a></li>


Seriously, that's about it!  Of course, you'd need to fix up a few of
the links, image references, alt text, etc.  But that's about the length
of the markup you'd need to create a page like yours.  Isn't that easier
compared with trying to learn from the FP garbage?

Of course, it doesn't look anything like the current page in a browser,
but that's because HTML is *not* a presentational language and that's
what CSS is for.

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It may seem so when your presented with the monstrosity of code that FP
produces, but it's really not that hard.  I wrote the above in about 15
minutes and it really is about all you need to markup that entire
document.  A stylesheet could probably be done in less than 20 lines of
CSS (maybe as little a 5 lines), though CSS is a little harder than HTML.

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Using CSS, this stylesheet will do that.
Place this within the <head> section to achieve the same colours as your
current page

<style type="text/css">
body { color: black; background-color: #99ccff; }
:link { color: black; }
:visited { color: #000080; }
:link:hover: {color: #ff0000; }
:link:active { color: #003300; }

Use of an external stylesheet is recommend though.

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You could always generate the images using FP if you like, then save
them and import them into another editor.

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No, you most certainly don't have to live with the bloat.  Learn to hand
code properly, and you'll never go back to WYSIWYG editors again!

Lachlan Hunt / Rediscover the Web Reclaim your Inbox

Re: HTML old newbie

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:40:04 +0000, Jim Scott wrote:

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I'm sure DW can do that.  Not sure how, but DW is very featureful.

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