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On a page I have the following structure:

Company Name (H1)

Content Title  (H2)               Sidebar Section Title  (H2)
   [Articles Titles]   (H3)

Is this a correct way to structure the Headers?

A few questions more:

1) If I don't have a Content Title should I make the Articles Titles
should become H2?

2) When showing a complete article I have:

     Company Name (H1)

     [Articles Title]   (H3)     Sidebar Section Title  (H2)

Should I make Article title to H2?
I think the Article Title should be always coherent either being in a
list or not.

Thank You,

Re: Headers

shapper wrote:
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Didn't you ever to outlines for your reports back in grade-school?

Take care,


Re: Headers

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I really don't understand these comments ... And I see them to often
in these forums.

If people don't want to give some feedback just don't.


Re: Headers

shapper wrote:

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You never did a outline before when writing a research paper back when
you were in school?

I. Blah
    1. Fee
    2. Fie
    3. Foe
        a. foo
        b. bar
        c. baz
    4. Fum
II. Blah-blah
    1. More
    2. Stuff...

html document semantic structure - Google Search

Take care,


Re: Headers

writing in news:eb79fb75-6053-48e2-b791-

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Jonathan IS giving you feedback.  He is telling you to go back to what
you learned in grade school about outlines.  The same applies here.  One
of the options at the validator is Show Outline.  

Once that is invoked, the validator comes up with something like:

"Below is an outline for this document, automatically generated from the
heading tags (<h1> through <h6>.)

If this does not look like a real outline, it is likely that the heading
tags are not being used properly. (Headings should reflect the logical
structure of the document; they should not be used simply to add
emphasis, or to change the font size.)"

The other way to check something like this is to use Opera browser and
use View -> Style -> Table of Contents.

Take a look at what you have done, and see if the outline makes sense.  

Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
Please respond to the group so others can share

Re: Headers


I understand your point ...

For me going from the document up to down I will get a sequence of:
h1, h2, h3, ...

Usually I use only one H1 which is basically the "page".

But how do you include here the side bar?

For me it would be:

H1 > Page

H2 > Content Section (Example: Today's Articles)

   H3 > Articles

H2 > Sidebar Section

But if in a page I have only one article then the Article in this case
will be H2.

This is how I see it ...

Is it correct?


 I am going to checkthe Opera's Table of Contents

Thank You for the tip.

Re: Headers

In article

[... document order, headings etc...]

I know several people (in my care now, God help them) who have literally
gone barking mad fretting over where to bestow the Hs. It is not a
rational task quite often with columns or panels because each has its
own internal order and often the columns are not always *really*
commensurate. Thus, an H2 in one column has a logic for that column and
and an H2 has a logic in another column but the two cannot be said to be
equal in respect to the whole page. This paradox has caused me to shake
down... I mean to sell... no, I mean ... to provide many treatments to
patients that are stuck in life like Buridan's ass.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan 's_ass>

If you find this in any way helpful, Miguel, please send me a Roasted
Bacalhau à Nazaré.


Re: Headers

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And what decision do you take? Given my example what would you do?

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If I would be the Buridan's ass I would take a random decision ... at
least I would eat.
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Not yet ... let me see what would you do in terms of my Header
example ...

Did you do anything else in Portugal besides eating all the food you
could find?
I admit that our food is good and touched your heart ... I mean your
stomach ... But nevertheless we are more than that ...

Did you try A=E7orda de Gambas? That is what I ate yesterday ...

Re: Headers

In article

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That's the real trouble here. You did not give an example. You just
mentioned a few things in a post. How about a URL with your best shot
with soe meaningful content that gives a true idea. Sometimes a lot
depends on these things. All this abstract stuff about guidelines and
the right ways is fine up to a point, but how has it helped you so far?
Let's get down to business, solid practical business:

1. A URL with an example that you can make as real as possible.

2. You going into your kitchen and cooking for me.

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So take a random decision here where the choices are quite impossible to
figure! If you supply the URL with a real looking case, you will get a
better idea and people will give more detailed answers.

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No, send some of that then... I have not had breakfast yet so hurry...


Re: Headers

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I just created the example:


It has four pages (I created a menu):

Index > A list of articles, each on with its header.
Document > A list of documents with a section header
Contact > A "form" with a section header
ShowArticle > One article with its header (No section header)

All pages have a Content and a Sidebar where each section has a

The H1 is applied to the logo. For now I am using only the ALT with
the page title.
But I am thinking in using Image replacement as  Adrienne suggested
it ...

Not sure if hidden is the correct idea for search engines or -9999px
offset as I have been seeing in other examples.

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No, but I will post A=E7orda de Gambas recipe here tomorrow ;-)


Re: Headers

In article

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If the text for the articles are on the home page, why are they going to
another page to show the text? Or is the text on the home page just a
summary or the first few words of the article and the link is meant to
go to the full text? You have seen how posts go back and forth endlessly
trying to clear up misunderstandings. Why not help to allay *most* of
them by anticipation in your initial example: make it look a bit real.
Grab some article somewhere and stick it in. Would you like some of
mine? I am prepared to swap various ones for Portuguese food. Mine are
only good for example text, I have completely failed to change the
world. I might as well get a few snacks out of them. 40 years ago I sold
many of my books and bought pot plants. Never regretted it.

What is the documents page exactly? Is it a list of documents that will
*not* be described but are available to be downloaded? Do the document
names provide the user with sufficient information? Are they there to be
read? What? You want to know about the semantics and this and that, I
say it is important to know more about what you are doing. Others
perhaps feel different and can help with schema filling in their own
ideas for things.

I say again, it is impossible to know well what to do about markup until
you know quite a bit about the material you are presenting. For some
reason, I am not in a guessing mood. Perhaps it is your fault, I had to
settle for a miserable fried egg on toast for breakfast this morning.
Had it been Açorda de Gambas, well...

Still, perhaps the sound of this last cheers me up a fraction and I
offer these little pearls:

* If you are wondering document semantics, and can believe the theory
that content is separate from presentation, it is consistent and useful
to set all out without a thought to CSS. In this case, you might start
out a new page or site by forgetting about styling as much as you can.
(This has got to be worth at least two servings of Açorda de Gambas!
C'mon now, admit it. It is a quality thought).

* On the home page you present the company whose website it is. It is
less of a question whether this should be a level one heading here than
if you repeat it on every page. In other words. on the home page it
might be interpreted as 'This is the home page of the Ajax Company, a
proud flooring outfit' But if it is *just* the name or logo of the
company, what is it saying for it to be a real semantic heading? It must
mean something *in relation* to the rest of the document.

If it is a logo at the top of every page, even with Adrienne's nice
suggestion, what is so H1 about it? How does it help understanding each
page? In an essay, you might get the main heading at the beginning like
'Roger Rabbit's anxieties over his wife, Jessica' but each subsequent
heading would be lesser. In a book, there would be a title on the cover
and there might be chapters. The chapters would have *a useful main

What is the model for a website with many pages? It is not a done deal
Miguel! You need to put on your thinking cap and make up your own mind.
I am prepared to swap my Phd thesis on the HI for a Portuguese three
courser. No bargaining about it. It has to be the whole works and a lot
of it. Plus you might like to throw in some interesting
conversationalist for me during the meal. (See the great film by Louis
Malle, 'My dinner with Andre').

* So, there *is* an argument for not putting the logo and banner etc in
an H1. There is nothing in HTML that is better, so use the fallback DIV
perhaps. And make the H1, the really true description of that particular
page, cover it all in a brief bold way. But just look at your home page.
It simply has article headings and text of those 'articles'. What
unifies them? What unifies them and the stats and the ads? These are
really impossible questions so why not just do something practical and
have an H1 heading to head the series of articles like "What our company
is and has been over the last 20 years" (if that is what the articles
are *about*). Each page might have a central theme. Make that theme the
H1 heading. These are just suggestions for you to think about things.
There is no plain truth in these matters. It all depends on your actual
content, on how much truth content and style really can be separated.


Re: Headers

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Sorry, I forgot to spcecify that. They are only a resume of the text.
On ShowArticle all the text will be displayed.

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Documents contains a list of documents.
For each document I will display:
A Title, Updated Date and Tags which describe their content.

They are not for download. They redirect to a new page: ShowDocument
In that page there will be a Scribd IPaper to display the document.
And a link to download it but only some of them are allowed to be

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For me the heading 1 would be the "page title" itself:
"Contact", "Services", etc

But for SEO it would be good, I think, to be the same title as in the
page Head Title:
"Contact - Water Company", "Services - Water Company", ...
It is just that the header text is not showing ...
... I display a logo instead with an Alt attribute equal to the page

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So H1 wouldn't be the title on the page? It seems logic to me.
If I would use Opera Table of Content I would get either on of the two

   <H2> ... </H2>

But yes when later I display a Content H2 header saying Contact I am
repeating myself.

So probably the H1 should be only the Company's Name as Addrienne

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You know my brother? lol

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I see the Content and the Sidebar has two different placement
The common thing is they are under the same page.

So looking at the articles, stats and publicity I would make something

<h1>Home Page</h1>
  <h2>Article 1</h2>
  <h2>Article 2</h2>

This would be my document ...
But I don't want to display HomePage using text.
The logo would represent that ...

But then in contact I would have the problem:


Or maybe I could use the following:

<h1>Water Company</h1>

And in Home Page:

<h1>Water Company</h1>
  <h2>Article 1</h2>
  <h2>Article 2</h2>

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Yes, this is why I have H1 to the logo.
And the ALT of the logo is the title of the page including the
company's name ...
... which is exactly the same I use on the Head Title

The articles on the homepage are something similar to a blog.
They are the 5 last articles published about various themes.

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Yes I know ... I am going to improve my online example.

Re: Headers


I just posted a new example:

The H1 contains the site name.
I am using Adrienne H1 image replacement.

Then on each page I have the following:

<h2>Page Content Name</h2>
<h2>Page Stats</h2>
<h2>Page Publicity</h2>

So for Contact page I have:

And for index I have:
  <h3>Article 1</h3>
  <h3>Article 2</h3>

In this case, because I don't want to display the Articles header I
use "display: none;"
I used "visibility: hidden" but that keeps the empty space.

So every page has
H1 > Page name
H2  > Page Content Name (Hidden or Not), Page Stats, Page Publicity

And then under Page Content Name I use H3, H4, ...

In Head Title I use:

Page Content Name - Company Name

So basically I use data from the H1 and the first H2

What do you think?

This makes sense to me but any suggestion is welcome.


Re: Headers

In article

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and look in Opera under Style/Table of Contents. What do we see? At
least something that resembles a half intelligent structure. Never mind
the missing H levels (two!), nothing is perfect. The H1 is specifically
about *this particular page*. I made this general point yesterday and I
was thinking maybe you might discuss it. But so far you keep repeating
that your logo is to be this - and on every one of your pages? It tells
nothing in particular about each page?

Or maybe you are right? Perhaps it is saying "And here is yet another
page from the Apex Water Company website". Perhaps this is useful to
folks landing on the page cold? It is surely less useful to your average
*site* visitor. I don't know, I think an H1 should try hard to help the
user understand *something useful about the specific main content of the
page it is on*. Your view and that of others might differ.

When I said earlier that it is not a done deal about how things should
be organised, I was not kidding. If you look at various arguments about
how to structure H headings and generally to structure pages and
sections of pages and also if you look at how screen readers and other
voice readers read pages, and if you look at the way search engines
weight things, you will be hard put to find some uncontroversial,
consistent and good policy.

As far as I see, a web page with ads and footers and navigation menus
and other things too, is quite a mongrel. That does not mean it should
not be treated well. It just means the parts are hard to manage on a one
document structure basis. HTML runs into limitations when dealing with

Let's go along with the idea that the H1 is appropriately the company
name with the implied assumption of it saying that the contents of this
page are all the things the company want to say on this page. Yes, that
sounds weak. But have you any better suggestion?

Right. In that case, there should be or be implied an H2 for all the
sections that have some technically equal weight under the H1.
'Technical equal' here does not mean it is viewed by you or anyone as
equally important in all or many respects, but simply that the scope of
the H1, under our present hypothesis, goes to the whole page (ads and
all). And this scope point extends to all the heading levels. In other
words, if something is not directly under an H2 (which is under the H1),
then you might need to ask yourself what H2 is it indirectly under?

Yes, that means that if you cannot think of a reasonable scheme where
the ads would have a distant meaningful H2 heading, then you perhaps
better make the ads have an H2 heading. The footer too. The navigation,
of course! (You do this partly OK. Don't worry. But here I am
questioning the model under which you might be being advised.)

That does not mean you have to always visibly display these headings.
They can be put off to the side but still be usefully seized on by
screen readers.

Another way to go is to recognise the limitations of a web page having
an overall 'document' structure and treat the big sections (nav, main
content, and others as sui generis contexts) deserving their own set of
quite independent heading sequences. A navigation section on many
websites that (perhaps naughtily) do not sport individuality on each
page (in other words it is the same exact thing on every page) might be
considered not to belong to an overall hierarchy *of* the page. It just
*happens* to be on the page - it 'belongs' more to the site as a whole;
it could be floated off somewhere even like in a separate window. No I
am not saying to do this or that it is practical or good! I am saying
the logical structure of the matter is that you *could* do this as far
as the function and meaning and purpose is concerned.

If you don't want to get into all this stuff, what can I say: turn off
all CSS and write as if it is all turned off and have a look at how it
looks, does it all make sense? Listen to it being read out or imagine
how it goes for the non visual. Perhaps yours is good enough as it is.


Re: Headers

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Thank you dorayme ... Check your email ... lol

Re: Headers

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When using Opera's Table of Contents I get an empty H1.
Usually I use the H1 for the web site name/logo.
(I read some time ago in a few blogs that H1 should be used only once
and for this ...)

In this case I have:

<h1 class=3D"Logo">
  <a href=3D"/">
    <img alt=3D"My Company" src=3D"../../Contents/Image/

Is this incorrect?

Thank You,

Re: Headers

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Or maybe even more correct, in relation to H1, it would be:

<h1 class=3D"Logo">
  <a href=3D"/">
    <img alt=3D"THIS PAGE TITLE - My Company" src=3D"../../Contents/Image/

I changed the alt:
alt=3D"THIS PAGE TITLE - My Company"

This is how I create all Page titles ...

Or maybe using CSS image replacement for the logo ...

Anyway, any tip is welcome.


Re: Headers

writing in news:9bf28cc8-2d43-40f4-be18-34b14a7fc363

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Remember, do not put content in the alt attribute if the image is purely
decorative.  You would do better with alt="".  If you want to indicate
that a logo is a link, then the title attribute would be more

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This is how I do these things in CSS - YMMV:

<h1><span>Company Name</span></h1>

h1 {background-image: url("myimg.png"; background-repeat:no-repeat;
h1 span {visibilty: hidden}

Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
Please respond to the group so others can share

Re: Headers

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Got it ... I was using alt so search engines would "understand" what
that h1 is for.

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Shouldn't the span have a -9999px offset?

I mean, being hidden has good results in search engines?

But I like your idea ... I might adopt it.

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