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Posted by Todd Allcock on November 14, 2007, 11:57 am
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At 13 Nov 2007 06:00:07 -0800 William wrote:
> Todd, that's one of the best and clearest discussions of the PDA-Phone
> marketplace that I've ever read.
>
Thanks. However, I hope it didn't come off as anti-iPhone or anti-
Blackberry. I feel the market has room for a myriad of different devices
with different design philosophies. I also think WinMo has a way to go
before reaching the "telephone" standard of ease of use. I love my HTC
Wizard, but it's very akward to actually use as a phone! When people ask
me what it can do, I typically joke that it "e-mails, surfs the web,
plays movies and music, and can even remotely-control my home and work
computers. It does everything but make a phone call!" ;-)
Warts and all, though, I wouldn't trade my WinMo phone for a bucket of
Blackberries and iPhones.
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Posted by Rob Nicholson on November 14, 2007, 11:15 am
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>Ok. It should just stop responding so you think it locked up? While it'd
>be nice if all smartphones ran Intel dual-core processors,
Responsiveness is key to a mobile phone and I do get the feeling that trying
to use an OS architecture that was more designed around a desktop PC isn't
most wise of moves. My S710 is underpowered but I knew that before I bought
it but 200MHz is still a lot faster than some of the 8 bit CPU games system
used to program :-) I'm assuming that the S730 with a much more powerful CPU
will help considerably. I see that the S710 has dropped £50 odd pounds here
in the UK to make way for the S730. Darn! Esp. as it's 3G and 2.5G doesn't
really exist here in UK.
>realities of battery demands means advanced phones will occasionally be
>slow to respond.
Ahh but WM6 is a little too slow at annoying times :-) Like when it rings
and I take it out of the docking station - it sometimes takes 5 seconds for
the ANSWER button to work.
>than quickly scanned it for what he felt were defects. The task manager is
>not needed by anyone but power users, but we power users WANT it.
Agreed - misaligned attack. I have used the task manager more often that I
expected but that's when I got it and was messing around. Skype appears to
be the only program that needs lots of memory.
>Here's MY free tip for Apple: why not listen to your users rather than have
>the hubris to think you know best and expect your users to adapt to your
>design?
I can see both sides of the fence here. Sometimes it does take somebody been
radical to make changes.
>relies on an iTunes-equipped PC!) These devices are miniature computers
>with the power and capabilities that desktops had just a few years ago,
yet I need a connected PC (or 3rd party software) to change a file
extension, make a media playlist, or edit my Exchange server settings!
I appreciate that and yes, it continues to amaze me what I can do with it.
>complexity. However devices like the iPhone should lead to design
VMware on a WM6 device anyone? Dual boot ;-)
>one single piece of hardware, it could be rock solid as well. Hmm-sounds
>like a ZunePhone! ;-)
That must be on the cards.
>Different devices for different needs. The iPhone is a slick iPod phone
I suppose the compromise of size is directing this. I love the iPhone larger
screen (twice as big as S710) for web browsing. I only played for 15 mins
with the iPhone so can't comment too much on how well the browser works. WM6
seems to struggle sometimes but that's probably the 320x240 pixel screen.
Cheers, Rob.
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Posted by Todd Allcock on November 14, 2007, 1:00 pm
Please log in for more thread options At 14 Nov 2007 16:15:07 +0000 Rob Nicholson wrote:
> Responsiveness is key to a mobile phone and I do get the feeling
> that trying to use an OS architecture that was more designed
> around a desktop PC isn't most wise of moves.
Perhaps, but think that overcomplexity is what allows things like the
File Exporer having access to desktop shares, or remote terminal
capability.
> My S710 is underpowered
> but I knew that before I bought it but 200MHz is still a lot faster
> than some of the 8 bit CPU games systems used to program :-)
As is my 200MHz Wizard! Pretty pokey at times.
> Ahh but WM6 is a little too slow at annoying times :-) Like when it
rings
> and I take it out of the docking station - it sometimes takes 5 seconds
for
> the ANSWER button to work.
Yeah, mine is slow to let me answer during certain times, but typically
only when I'm low on memory. In your case I'd blame Activesync (but
that's because I blame Activesync for everything, including the Titanic
and Hindenberg disasters!)- it hogs most of the phone's resources
(despite being dog-slow to actually sync!) I miss my old WM2003 device
for it'ssync speed.
> Skype appears to
> be the only program that needs lots of memory.
Have you tried Fring (www.fring.com)? It's an alternative VoIP program
that supports Skype calling. I find it FAR less memory intensive than
Skype's WinMo product, and works better on slow devices like ours-
particularly for voice- it's far less choppy. It's clunkier than Skype
to operate for dialing phone numbers, since it's overly contact-oriented-
(it doesn't have a dialpad! If you want to call a number not in your
phone or Skype contacts you need to bring up any contact and override
their default phone number by punching one in!)
I keep both programs on my device, but find I use Fring more.
> I can see both sides of the fence here. Sometimes it does take somebody
been
> radical to make changes.
True. I was just very disappointed by the iPhone, particularly after
watching Jobs' keynote in January. I WANTED to like it, but it had too
many limitations for my use (no GPS support, no OTA/Exchange sync, no
usenet client available, etc.) but more importantly, no way for third
party developers to address them. (M ybe this will change in February
with the SDK release, but I'm guessing the SDK will be too crippled to
get too deeply into the iPhone's guts.)
That's the real beauty of WinMo- any flaws (and it has 'em!) can be, and
probably has already been, addressed by 3rd-party development.
> VMware on a WM6 device anyone? Dual boot ;-)
Sadly, the life cycle of these devices are too short to start from ground
up- years ago, when a single model stuck around for a year or two, or
subsequent models were based on the previous one but with more RAM, etc.,
you saw some REAL alternative development. NetBSD has been ported to a
variety of older devices, including many NEC, HP, and IBM handheld PCs.
There was a version of Linux ported to some old iPaq PPCs, etc.
> > Hmm-sounds
> >like a ZunePhone! ;-)
>
> That must be on the cards.
They can keep it if it's as crippled as the current Zune players! ;-)
> I suppose the compromise of size is directing this. I love the iPhone
larger
> screen (twice as big as S710) for web browsing. I only played for 15
mins
> with the iPhone so can't comment too much on how well the browser works.
It works very well. It's a feature Apple really nailed, without
question, IMHO. Other devices' included browsers now look antiquated by
comparison.
> WM6
> seems to struggle sometimes but that's probably the 320x240 pixel screen.
Try OperaMini- it's free and the new version 4 simulates the iPhone's
"full screen w/zoom" concept quite well. It's reduced my iPhone browser
envy! ;-)
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Posted by Rob Nicholson on November 15, 2007, 12:21 pm
Please log in for more thread options > Yeah, mine is slow to let me answer during certain times, but typically
> only when I'm low on memory. In your case I'd blame Activesync (but
> that's because I blame Activesync for everything, including the Titanic
A wise stance... so, ActiveSync needs to be better :-)
> Have you tried Fring (www.fring.com)? It's an alternative VoIP program
> that supports Skype calling. I find it FAR less memory intensive than
No I haven't but then again, I've still not got over the novetly of calling
my friends in France for NOTHING!
>> seems to struggle sometimes but that's probably the 320x240 pixel screen.
> Try OperaMini- it's free and the new version 4 simulates the iPhone's
> "full screen w/zoom" concept quite well. It's reduced my iPhone browser
> envy! ;-)
Will do. Hey, at least there are options with WM6. I almost tried Opera as I
think www.theregister.com works better with it.
Cheers, Rob.
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Posted by Roger on November 14, 2007, 5:05 pm
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At 12 Nov 2007 12:39:25 +0000 Rob Nicholson wrote:
> I have read several reviews that criticise any Smartphone just because
it's
> based upon WM, i.e. cut-down Windows like this one:
>
> http://mobile.slashdot.org/mobile/07/11/11/150229.shtml
Oh, the David Pogue article. I swear that guy gets a check from Apple
everytime he writes a column!
> Don't get me wrong, I love my HTC S710 but I can also take off my rose
> tinted glasses and recognise the flaws and I really can appreciate some
of
> the comments in the main article.
Yes and no. Yes, I have problems with WinMo, but no, not the ridiculous
things he writes about.
Like his "free suggestions" for Windows Mobile improvements...
"First of all, a cellphone should not display a "wait" cursor. Ever".
Ok. It should just stop responding so you think it locked up? While
it'd be nice if all smartphones ran Intel dual-core processors, the
realities of battery demands means advanced phones will occasionally be
slow to respond.
"A cellphone should not have a Task Manager. You should never have to
worry about quitting programs because you've used up too much memory."
Actually this one frosted me the most! The Shadow has 128MB of RAM, and
doesn't "run out of memory" as he'd know if he actually USED it rather
than quickly scanned it for what he felt were defects. The task manager
is not needed by anyone but power users, but we power users WANT it.
Here's MY free tip for Apple: why not listen to your users rather than
have the hubris to think you know best and expect your users to adapt to
your design?
> The CPU in my S710 is really a bit under
> powered and the WM6 user interface does annoy me a lot sometimes but
I'm
> sticking with it because I can see the advantages for me.
As can I. My problems with WinMo are more conceptual- WinMo devices rely
too much on a connected PC. (But still nowhere as much as the iPhone
relies on an iTunes-equipped PC!) These devices are miniature computers
with the power and capabilities that desktops had just a few years ago,
yet I need a connected PC (or 3rd party software) to change a file
extension, make a media playlist, or edit my Exchange server settings!
> However, I'm
> trialling these kind of devices to decide whether we roll our WM6
> Smartphone or go with the crowd and deploy Blackberry. As it stands,
> I think I'd have trouble completely defending WM6, it's just too,
> well clunky.
It still needs some polishing, but WinMo's strength is it's malleability-
devices like the Treo W's, T-Mo's Shadow, or the HTC Touch show the
"value added" that OEMs can bring to the table, or you can go "plain
vanilla" like the HTC 610 or 710. WinMo allows remote desktop access,
advanced Exchange synching, VoIP- but of course, that functionality adds
complexity and a learning curve.
Blackberries are fantastic e-mail devices, but they're essentially one-
trick ponies, and add the expense of BES to the organization's IT budget.
> I'm not trying to act as a troll but do you think that devices like
> the iPhone will cause a redesign?
That's a valid question, but I doubt it. Flexibility leads to
complexity. However devices like the iPhone should lead to design
improvements, which I'd argue is what the Shadow and Touch are trying to
do- hide the complexity of the WinMo interface with an OEM "task-
oriented" one. This is good and bad. Ease of use is a good thing, but
so is consistancy. Once you get the hang of the WinMo interface, it's
easy to adapt to a different model. An HTC Touch user using the "cube"
GUI might be stymied by a more traditional HP 510 interface, for example.
> I also appreciate the iPhone is not without
> it's flaws but boy does it look and feel nice. To you average mobile
phone
> user that goes a long way.
Absolutely, but that comes at the expense of capability and flexibility.
Some of the iPhone's "ease of use" comes from a lack of "confusing"
features. Bluetooth support is headset only, so you won't be "confused"
by complicated PAN or DUN setups or file transfer problems- no tethering
options to confuse the user, no "complicated" OTA sync, no errant 3rd-
party apps to crash the OS, etc. I suspect if a WinMo phone was limited
to e-mail, a browser, Windows Media Player and a phone, and built around
one single piece of hardware, it could be rock solid as well. Hmm-
sounds like a ZunePhone! ;-)
Such a closed system would be embarrassing if it was also complicated and
unstable. My microwave oven never crashes, and is easy to use as well!
Unfortunately for stability's sake, WinMo has to function on a variety of
devices built by a number of manufacturers with different hardware configs.
Most of the instability I encounter with WinMo is from 3rd-party
software- the QMail newsreader I'm tapping this reply on tends to use up
available memory and doesn't release it all, forcing me to reboot if I
open and close it too many times. That wouldn't be a problem on the
iPhone- it doesn't have an NNTP news client and wouldn't let me install
one if one existed anyway!
Different devices for different needs. The iPhone is a slick iPod phone
with mini webtablet. Period. The Blackberry is a portable e-
mail/organizer, and WinMo, is, IMHO, the Swiss-Army knife of portable
computing. It can do almost ANYTHING, but does it with amazing mediocrity.
No one in their right mind would CHOOSE to use the scissors or
screwdriver in a Swiss-Army knife over a real screwdriver or scissors, if
available, but the knife packs a number of functions into one all-
purpose, easy-to-carry device. THAT'S Windows Mobile.
Everyone has a different need for their mobile device. In my case, I
want a laptop-replacement. While it's not perfect, it's as close to
reaching that goal as anything has managed to so far.
Thanks for that well reasoned & well argued post. I wish akk newsgroup enies
were half as well done!
Roger
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