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Using asterisks

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Subject Author Date
Using asterisks D.M. Procida 01-22-2008
---> Re: Using asterisks Harlan Messinge...01-22-2008
| ---> Re: Using asterisks Jukka K. Korpel...01-23-2008
| | ---> Re: Using asterisks Harlan Messinge...01-23-2008
| |   | |--> Re: Using asterisks Harlan Messinge...01-23-2008
| |   `--> Re: Using asterisks Jukka K. Korpel...01-23-2008
| ---> Re: Using asterisks Harlan Messinge...01-23-2008
|   ---> Re: Using asterisks Jukka K. Korpel...01-23-2008
|     `--> Re: Using asterisks Harlan Messinge...01-23-2008
---> Re: Using asterisks Jukka K. Korpel...01-22-2008
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Posted by Jukka K. Korpela on January 23, 2008, 6:53 am
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Scripsit Steve Swift:

> Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>> Because we need to talk of such a thing, and "abbreviation" is
>> already a word for it. Check a dictionary if in doubt.
>
> Strange point of view, when even your own page at
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/latin1/3.html#2A indicates that one
> possible use for asterisk is:
>
> "the asterisk is often used as a wildcard character which matches any
> string of characters."

Where does the word "abbreviation" or its abbreviation appear there?

Did you already check a dictionary? Did you proceed from A
(abbreviation) to S (symbol) already?

> So by your own definition "*" becomes the ultimate abbreviation for
> "première",

My description of asterisk usage was no definition, and the asterisk is
not an abbreviation. If I have somewhere called it an abbreviation, that
would be a mistake, just as if anyone else had done that.

> but with all of the original letters removed from the
> abbreviation, with the "*" signifying its presence.

It sounds like you have no idea of what wildcards are. I guess you have
some but now you pretend to be ignorant.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/


Posted by Jon Fairbairn on January 23, 2008, 6:11 am
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> Scripsit Andy Dingley:
>
>> Why should abbreviation be
>> necessarily limited to a literal subset of the characters from the
>> defining term?
>
> Because we need to talk of such a thing, and "abbreviation"
> is already a word for it. Check a dictionary if in doubt.

The OED:

3. esp. A shortened form of a spoken word, or written
symbol; a part of a word or symbol standing for the
whole.


--
Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fairbairn@cl.cam.ac.uk

Posted by Jukka K. Korpela on January 23, 2008, 7:00 am
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Scripsit Jon Fairbairn:

> The OED:
>
> 3. esp. A shortened form of a spoken word, or written
> symbol; a part of a word or symbol standing for the
> whole.

Get a better dictionary, like Merriam-Webster:

"Abbreviation
1 : the act or result of abbreviating : abridgment
2 : a shortened form of a written word or phrase used in place of the
whole <amt is an abbreviation for amount>"

The OED is obscure here, since if parsed as "(A shortened form of a
spoken word)", or (written symbol)", it means that any written symbol
(e.g., "I" when used as a personal pronoun) is an abbreviation. If
parsed as "A shortened form of ((a spoken word), or (written symbol))",
it's slightly ungrammatical but makes more sense: in principle, non-word
symbols may have abbreviations, too.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/


Posted by Harlan Messinger on January 23, 2008, 8:55 am
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Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> Scripsit Jon Fairbairn:
>
>> The OED:
>>
>> 3. esp. A shortened form of a spoken word, or written
>> symbol; a part of a word or symbol standing for the
>> whole.
>
> Get a better dictionary, like Merriam-Webster:

ROFL. What audacity.

> "Abbreviation
> 1 : the act or result of abbreviating : abridgment
> 2 : a shortened form of a written word or phrase used in place of the
> whole <amt is an abbreviation for amount>"

In other words, it's the dictionary that has the less comprehensive
definition that you prefer. Oh, but you're probably using the free
version. Let's see what the Merriam Webster Unabridged has to say:

"2 a : a shortened form of a written word or phrase used for brevity in
place of the whole made commonly by omission of letters from one or more
parts of the whole ... often extended to include signs and symbols (as ÷
for divided by, & for and, $ for dollar);"

To forestall any argument based on strict etymological, literal grounds
to the effect that an abbreviation *must* involve
abbreviating--shortening--and not substituting, I will note that under
the same logic, "pájaro", the basic Spanish word for "bird", could only
be used to refer to sparrows (Latin "passer").

Another perspective: suppose the W3C had noted that traditional
abbreviations (shortenings) and substituted symbols are conceptually, if
not formally, the same, serving the same purpose and used in the same
kinds of places (such as table cells where "n/a" might be found in one
cell and a dagger symbol in another, both requiring explanation), and
that the same kinds of general information about them would be useful to
user agents (i.e., what they stand for, how they are to be pronounced,
whether they can be cross-referenced to a glossary), so they viewed them
as one kind of thing that it would make sense to denote with a single
tag. What would they call it? Well, can you think of anything more
appropriate than <abbr>? Or would you expect <abbr_or_symbol>? Or would
you conclude that since (in your view) there isn't a single common word
to describe both kinds of short forms, it would be necessary to come up
with separate tags, not because they would be used to mark up
conceptually different kinds of elements, but because of a shortcoming
in English vocabulary? I don't know about you, but I suspect the outcome
would have been a single tag, <abbr>.

> The OED is obscure here, since if parsed as "(A shortened form of a
> spoken word)", or (written symbol)", it means that any written symbol
> (e.g., "I" when used as a personal pronoun) is an abbreviation. If
> parsed as "A shortened form of ((a spoken word), or (written symbol))",
> it's slightly ungrammatical but makes more sense: in principle, non-word
> symbols may have abbreviations, too.

I agree that the wording is poor. The W3C HTML specification is often
worded more poorly than that, so I suppose we should disregard its
substance as well.

Posted by Andy Dingley on January 23, 2008, 9:32 am
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wrote:

> >> The OED:
>
> >> 3. esp. A shortened form of a spoken word, or written
> >> symbol; a part of a word or symbol standing for the
> >> whole.
>
> > Get a better dictionary, like Merriam-Webster:
>
> ROFL. What audacity.

What ambiguity. Although the real OED (any edition) is fine, as is
the Compact, the affordable abridged or concise editions are just too
abridged to be of much use at this level.

A real OED isn't cheap either. A S/H Compact is about =A3100, new full
OEDs are =A3500. Unless you're an academic or a particularly dedicated
sort of harmless drudge, you're unlikely to have access.


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