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Re: Orbital Mechanics - Solar System Simulator

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Re: Orbital Mechanics - Solar System Simulator David Williams 11-29-2006
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Posted by David Williams on November 29, 2006, 10:22 pm
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-> It's your turn.
-> Regards
-> Ken

Well, remember that the systems we are talking about are strictly
reversible. If you run a sim and a star gets ejected from orbit, then
you can run it the opposite way and the star gets captured.
Generalizations about the ways in which the systems evolve are highly
suspect - at least when the stars are of equal mass.

If the masses are unequal, then equipartition of energy becomes an
important concept. Statistically, over a long time, the bodies' average
energies tend to be equal. This means that the lighter bodies move
faster, on average, than the more massive ones, so the lighter ones are
most likely to move at more than escape velocity, and are therefore
lost from the system. The energy they take with them is removed from
the remaining bodies, which therefore tend to crowd closer together.

dow

Posted by rob on November 30, 2006, 2:47 am
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One thing that writing this sim has shown me is that capturing an object
seems to be very hard. I sometimes wonder how it is that we could speculate
that a moon could be captured and yet end up in an almost circular orbit
(such as Triton). I assume that something must influence the moon after its
capture that then forces it into a more circular orbit?

>-> It's your turn.
> -> Regards
> -> Ken
>
> Well, remember that the systems we are talking about are strictly
> reversible. If you run a sim and a star gets ejected from orbit, then
> you can run it the opposite way and the star gets captured.
> Generalizations about the ways in which the systems evolve are highly
> suspect - at least when the stars are of equal mass.
>
> If the masses are unequal, then equipartition of energy becomes an
> important concept. Statistically, over a long time, the bodies' average
> energies tend to be equal. This means that the lighter bodies move
> faster, on average, than the more massive ones, so the lighter ones are
> most likely to move at more than escape velocity, and are therefore
> lost from the system. The energy they take with them is removed from
> the remaining bodies, which therefore tend to crowd closer together.
>
> dow



Posted by Jonathan Silverlight on November 30, 2006, 3:33 am
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>>-> It's your turn.
>> -> Regards
>> -> Ken
>>
>> Well, remember that the systems we are talking about are strictly
>> reversible. If you run a sim and a star gets ejected from orbit, then
>> you can run it the opposite way and the star gets captured.
>> Generalizations about the ways in which the systems evolve are highly
>> suspect - at least when the stars are of equal mass.
>>
>> If the masses are unequal, then equipartition of energy becomes an
>> important concept. Statistically, over a long time, the bodies' average
>> energies tend to be equal. This means that the lighter bodies move
>> faster, on average, than the more massive ones, so the lighter ones are
>> most likely to move at more than escape velocity, and are therefore
>> lost from the system. The energy they take with them is removed from
>> the remaining bodies, which therefore tend to crowd closer together.
>>
>One thing that writing this sim has shown me is that capturing an object
>seems to be very hard. I sometimes wonder how it is that we could speculate
>that a moon could be captured and yet end up in an almost circular orbit
>(such as Triton). I assume that something must influence the moon after its
>capture that then forces it into a more circular orbit?
>
That's the easy bit - tidal forces will do it.
But the initial capture is indeed very difficult. There was a recent
paper on Triton's capture
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7090/abs/nature04792.html>
I'll expect correction but I'm not convinced that these systems are
always strictly reversible". Doesn't capture usually require some
deceleration of the captured body, as when a probe enters orbit around
another planet?

Posted by rob on November 30, 2006, 3:49 am
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Say, I saw a summary of that paper in the magazine "The New Scientist" a
couple of months ago :)

>>>-> It's your turn.
>>> -> Regards
>>> -> Ken
>>>
>>> Well, remember that the systems we are talking about are strictly
>>> reversible. If you run a sim and a star gets ejected from orbit, then
>>> you can run it the opposite way and the star gets captured.
>>> Generalizations about the ways in which the systems evolve are highly
>>> suspect - at least when the stars are of equal mass.
>>>
>>> If the masses are unequal, then equipartition of energy becomes an
>>> important concept. Statistically, over a long time, the bodies' average
>>> energies tend to be equal. This means that the lighter bodies move
>>> faster, on average, than the more massive ones, so the lighter ones are
>>> most likely to move at more than escape velocity, and are therefore
>>> lost from the system. The energy they take with them is removed from
>>> the remaining bodies, which therefore tend to crowd closer together.
>>>
>>One thing that writing this sim has shown me is that capturing an object
>>seems to be very hard. I sometimes wonder how it is that we could
>>speculate
>>that a moon could be captured and yet end up in an almost circular orbit
>>(such as Triton). I assume that something must influence the moon after
>>its
>>capture that then forces it into a more circular orbit?
>>
> That's the easy bit - tidal forces will do it.
> But the initial capture is indeed very difficult. There was a recent paper
> on Triton's capture
> <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7090/abs/nature04792.html>
> I'll expect correction but I'm not convinced that these systems are always
> strictly reversible". Doesn't capture usually require some deceleration of
> the captured body, as when a probe enters orbit around another planet?



Posted by rob on November 30, 2006, 3:55 am
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Say, I saw a summary of that paper in the magazine "The New Scientist" a
couple of months ago :)
Yeah, that pretty much seems to be the problem. It is just not possible to
shed the energy necessary to get it captured. Involving a third object
makes sense so that the energy is transferred away from the object that is
being captured, as I cant see how else it can lose the necessary energy.

>>>-> It's your turn.
>>> -> Regards
>>> -> Ken
>>>
>>> Well, remember that the systems we are talking about are strictly
>>> reversible. If you run a sim and a star gets ejected from orbit, then
>>> you can run it the opposite way and the star gets captured.
>>> Generalizations about the ways in which the systems evolve are highly
>>> suspect - at least when the stars are of equal mass.
>>>
>>> If the masses are unequal, then equipartition of energy becomes an
>>> important concept. Statistically, over a long time, the bodies' average
>>> energies tend to be equal. This means that the lighter bodies move
>>> faster, on average, than the more massive ones, so the lighter ones are
>>> most likely to move at more than escape velocity, and are therefore
>>> lost from the system. The energy they take with them is removed from
>>> the remaining bodies, which therefore tend to crowd closer together.
>>>
>>One thing that writing this sim has shown me is that capturing an object
>>seems to be very hard. I sometimes wonder how it is that we could
>>speculate
>>that a moon could be captured and yet end up in an almost circular orbit
>>(such as Triton). I assume that something must influence the moon after
>>its
>>capture that then forces it into a more circular orbit?
>>
> That's the easy bit - tidal forces will do it.
> But the initial capture is indeed very difficult. There was a recent paper
> on Triton's capture
> <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7090/abs/nature04792.html>
> I'll expect correction but I'm not convinced that these systems are always
> strictly reversible". Doesn't capture usually require some deceleration of
> the captured body, as when a probe enters orbit around another planet?



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