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Re: Framebreaking without JavaScript?

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Re: Framebreaking without JavaScript? nully 08-04-2008
Posted by nully on August 4, 2008, 4:01 am
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"Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote in message
>
>
>
> WebFoot wrote:
>
>>GOAL:
>>Break out of a hostile frame.
>>
>>IDEAL SOLUTION:
>>My page loads unframed.
>>
>>OK SOLUTION:
>>Framing site displays blank page
>>or 404 error inside the frame
>>
>>NOT LOOKING FOR:
>>JavaScript solution -- some visitors
>>don't have JavaScript enabled
>>
>>NOT LOOKING FOR:
>>Link with target="_top" solution -- it does not
>>work unless someone clicks on that link.
>>
>>NOT LOOKING FOR:
>>Meta refresh with target="_top" solution -- the
>>refreshing screws up the back button for the user,
>>and search engines don't like it.
>>
>>NOT LOOKING FOR:
>>A way to ban specific sites that frame my page. I want
>>to stop all sites from doing it rather than constantly
>>checking logs and adding new bans.
>
> I slapped together a test page for the various ways that
> I found doing a web search (I will add the php method I
> just read about in another post in the next few days).
> None meet all of your requirements. Some of them suck
> in various other ways.
>
> Test page: http://www.guymacon.net/f0n.html
>
> Being an engineer, I will now do what engineers do;
> question the requirements. When you write "NOT
> LOOKING FOR: A way to ban specific sites that frame
> my page. I want to stop all sites from doing it
> rather than constantly checking logs and adding new
> bans." you are making the assumption that you have
> to do the checking and adding. Not so. A computer
> program could do it for you.
>
> There already exists a program that watches the
> incoming requests and looks for web spiders that
> ignore robots.txt and denies them access, all without
> any human intervention.

There is?



Posted by John Bokma on August 4, 2008, 12:51 pm
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> "Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote in message

[..]

>> There already exists a program that watches the
>> incoming requests and looks for web spiders that
>> ignore robots.txt and denies them access, all without
>> any human intervention.
>
> There is?

It's not that hard to write such a program and blacklist their IP
addresses. However, it will catch only some bad bots since it's also
possible to make a bot that acts like a user.

--
John Bokma http://johnbokma.com/

AISE/AWW/SEO/web development forum: http://seo-expert-wiki.com/

Posted by Guy Macon on August 5, 2008, 12:50 am
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John Bokma wrote:
>
>
>> "Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote...
>
>>> There already exists a program that watches the
>>> incoming requests and looks for web spiders that
>>> ignore robots.txt and denies them access, all without
>>> any human intervention.
>>
>> There is?

Yes. http://danielwebb.us/software/bot-trap/

>It's not that hard to write such a program and blacklist their IP
>addresses. However, it will catch only some bad bots since it's also
>possible to make a bot that acts like a user.

Indeed it is. For example, Bot Trap places a tiny image link
on the page and has a robots.txt directive to avoid it. humans
won't see the link and thus will avoid it, good robots will obey
robots.txt and thus will avoid it, bad robots will follow the
link and get banned. Clearly a Bot-Trap-Aware bad robot would
avoid it as well.


--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>


Posted by Mark Goodge on August 5, 2008, 2:47 am
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On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:50:57 +0000, Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/> put finger to keyboard and typed:

>
>
>
>John Bokma wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Guy Macon" <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote...
>>
>>>> There already exists a program that watches the
>>>> incoming requests and looks for web spiders that
>>>> ignore robots.txt and denies them access, all without
>>>> any human intervention.
>>>
>>> There is?
>
>Yes. http://danielwebb.us/software/bot-trap/
>
>>It's not that hard to write such a program and blacklist their IP
>>addresses. However, it will catch only some bad bots since it's also
>>possible to make a bot that acts like a user.
>
>Indeed it is. For example, Bot Trap places a tiny image link
>on the page and has a robots.txt directive to avoid it. humans
>won't see the link and thus will avoid it, good robots will obey
>robots.txt and thus will avoid it, bad robots will follow the
>link and get banned. Clearly a Bot-Trap-Aware bad robot would
>avoid it as well.

The other thing that will ignore robots.txt and follow the link anyway
is any kind of pre-fetching web accelerator, since the point of these
is to pre-fetch anything linked from the page in case the human user
clicks on the link. It can't tell the difference between a link that
is intended to be followed and one that isn't.

I'm no great fan of pre-fetching caches, since they can have
unexpected behaviour and break things in unpredictable ways, but they
have their place and, since the majority of the negative side-effects
are at the user's end, it's up to the user to decide whether to put up
with them or not. Using a bot trap which blocks such users from
viewing your pages may not, therefore, be such a good idea.

Mark

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