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Re: DTD in browsers

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Re: DTD in browsers Henri Sivonen 05-03-2006
Posted by Henri Sivonen on May 6, 2006, 4:19 am
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> Henri Sivonen wrote:
> > What's my wrong assumption?
>
> That browser indeed treats quoted part of DTD as a unit (a la opaque
> strings in namespace declarations). Sorry if I'm wrong and it was not
> your assumption.

Gecko and WebKit indeed extract the public id as a string, fold it to
lower case and match the resulting string as an opaque string against a
list of known lowercased quirky public ids and almost standards mode
public ids. Like I said, I have not seen the source of IE, so I'm
refraining from claiming to know how exactly it does what it does.

> I see... Ignorance is the bless ;-)

ITYM bliss. ;-)

> > Homegrown DTDs for XML are legitimate for XML (but still arguably a bad
> > idea on the Web). It is not so clear whether homegrown DTDs are
> > appropriate for text/html.
>
> Proprietary DTD's are fully OK for XML, thus for XML+XSL transformers.

DTDs on the Web are a bad idea, because processing them is optional and
DTDs cause infoset augmentation, so the infoset reported to the
application may be different depending on whether the DTD was processed
or not.

> That is pretty close to how Windows Vista file management will work

Eh?

> > > > http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1144794177&count=1
> >
> > > But I would guess that the author simply mis-interpreted the
> > > rumors about hackers attacks using Content-Type tricks.
> >
> > He wasn't going by rumors. He has actually worked for Netscape and Opera
> > and also followed the bug database of Safari.
>
> Then his statement gets really strange - especially when anyone can
> prove it wrong.

He said "largely ignore". Your example is one of the cases not covered
by "largely".

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/

Posted by Henri Sivonen on May 6, 2006, 4:27 am
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> I would say that a string like <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML
> 4.01//EN"> is a document type declaration

OK.

> containing document type definition in it.

Referencing it, rather.

See Goldfarb's annotation to clause 11.1 of ISO 8879.

> Lucky both produces the same acronym DTD :-)

But DTD only stands for document type *definition*.

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

Posted by David Håsäther on May 6, 2006, 8:13 am
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> In article
>
>> I would say that a string like <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD
>> HTML 4.01//EN"> is a document type declaration containing document
>> type definition in it.
>
> Referencing it, rather.

Yes, it's referencing it, but I wouldn't call the wording "the
document type declaration contains the document type defintion"
wrong. In fact, I even remember Arjun Ray saying just that :-)

>> Lucky both produces the same acronym DTD :-)
>
> But DTD only stands for document type *definition*.

Confusingly though (and you probably know this Henri), the public
text class "DTD" as in "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" stands for
document type declaration *subset*.

--
David Håsäther

Posted by Henri Sivonen on May 6, 2006, 9:04 am
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>
> > In article
> >
> >> I would say that a string like <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD
> >> HTML 4.01//EN"> is a document type declaration containing document
> >> type definition in it.
> >
> > Referencing it, rather.
>
> Yes, it's referencing it, but I wouldn't call the wording "the
> document type declaration contains the document type defintion"
> wrong. In fact, I even remember Arjun Ray saying just that :-)

Well, yes, as an abstract concept, the document type declaration
"incorporates" the document type definition, but the *string* above does
not really literally contain the document type definition but its public
id.

> >> Lucky both produces the same acronym DTD :-)
> >
> > But DTD only stands for document type *definition*.
>
> Confusingly though (and you probably know this Henri), the public
> text class "DTD" as in "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" stands for
> document type declaration *subset*.

Isn't SGML terminology cool? :-)

To quote the Not-FAQ by Joe English:
'(SGML has a tradition of using the longest possible phrases to describe
the most frequently talked-about concepts; see also
"declared-content-or-content-model".)'

Of course, none of this matters on the real Web, because on the real
Web, HTML being an application of SGML is just fiction.

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

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