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Re: Astronomers Say Moons Like Ours Are Uncommon

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Re: Astronomers Say Moons Like Ours Are Uncommon N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\) 11-20-2007
Posted by Peter Munn on December 2, 2007, 12:33 pm
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Leafing through alt.sci.planetary, I read Steve Willner's message of
Fri, 30 Nov 2007:

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis
>> Is this the only model that survives what we know?
>
>As far as I know. The oxygen isotope ratios in particular are
>otherwise very hard to explain. Of course it may be that no one has
>thought of the right model yet, but giant impact certainly explains a
>lot.

I get the impression that only rather unlikely giant impact scenarios
achieve the tough constraints required: namely, a large moon formed with
a high enough orbit that it doesn't get pulled down by tidal drag.
Plus, unless the formation is very late in the process of clearing out
remnant planetoids, the moon's orbit also has to withstand the net drag
of subsequent lunar impacts. On the other hand, could a very late giant
impact with few really large subsequent lunar impacts be consistent with
the unevenness of the lunar gravity field?

My further impression is that "short story" (essentially single
mechanism) models have historically been preferred. Whilst I see that
this sort of preference is appropriate for sleuthing later solar system
history, the early solar system was likely a very busy place. Therefore
I suspect "long story", multiple mechanism, explanations may turn out to
be more likely than the highly constrained short story that is currently
favoured.

This leads me to propose scenarios like this: there were late Earth
impactors that threw up a lot of mantle material, but the material
coated (say 100km or more in depth) a satellite that was already there.
I suspect such Earth mantle coating of any pre-existing satellite was a
likely event; and that gaining a suitable pre-existing satellite (I
guess by capture or partial capture) requires much more easily
achievable constraints than the short story giant impact does.

A summary of my favoured alternative hypothesis would be: the moon was
captured; the giant impact thesis correctly fingers collision as the
mechanism responsible for the moon's very small core, but collisions
were common in the early solar system and the Earth may not have been
party to this particular one; the giant impact thesis correctly
identifies ejected Earth mantel as the source of known lunar materials,
but this is a surface effect.

>> So the report says that either:
>> 1) giant impact does not occur to produce moons like ours, or
>> 2) giant impact does not produce a great cloud of debris when making
>> moons like ours, or
>> 3) giant impact must produce a cloud of debris present for millions of
>> years, and moons like ours, are very rare.
>
>I'd put it a little differently, given that your 2) is almost
>inconceivable:
>1) Moons like ours are rare, or
>2) Moons like ours form by some process that does not generate dust.

There is also 3) Moons like ours can form early enough that, as the
original article puts it, the "dust [that astronomers detect] could be
left over from the planet-formation process", so the signal is unclear
amongst the noise.
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Posted by N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\) on December 2, 2007, 1:38 pm
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Dear Peter Munn:

...
> This leads me to propose scenarios like this: there
> were late Earth impactors that threw up a lot of
> mantle material, but the material coated (say 100km
> or more in depth) a satellite that was already there.
> I suspect such Earth mantle coating of any pre-
> existing satellite was a likely event; and that gaining
> a suitable pre-existing satellite (I guess by capture
> or partial capture) requires much more easily
> achievable constraints than the short story giant
> impact does.

This does not provide enough angular momentum to keep a
"significantly plated" Moon in orbit, certainly not a circular
one. The material would have to enter the Moon's orbit, then be
captured over some time.

> A summary of my favoured alternative hypothesis
> would be: the moon was captured; the giant impact
> thesis correctly fingers collision as the mechanism
> responsible for the moon's very small core, but
> collisions were common in the early solar system
> and the Earth may not have been party to this
> particular one; the giant impact thesis correctly
> identifies ejected Earth mantel as the source of
> known lunar materials, but this is a surface effect.

I like the spinning-but-mixed hypothesis. With gravitational
settling causing an increase in rotational speed, until
instability occurs. No significant collision required, and could
also occur during early solar system formation. With further
settling in the Earth occuring after "lobe off", would yield
sufficient additional boost to keep from capturing the Moon
again.

>>> So the report says that either:
>>> 1) giant impact does not occur to produce
>>> moons like ours, or
>>> 2) giant impact does not produce a great
>>> cloud of debris when making moons like ours, or
>>> 3) giant impact must produce a cloud of debris
>>> present for millions of years, and moons like
>>> ours, are very rare.
>>
>> I'd put it a little differently, given that your 2) is
>> almost inconceivable:
>>1) Moons like ours are rare, or
>>2) Moons like ours form by some process that
>>does not generate dust.
>
> There is also 3) Moons like ours can form early
> enough that, as the original article puts it, the
> "dust [that astronomers detect] could be left over
> from the planet-formation process", so the signal
> is unclear amongst the noise.

True.

Another option might be that dust distributions evoke "Dark
Matter"-type behavior, and tend to coallesce dust more rapidly
than for large bodies.

David A. Smith



Posted by Peter Munn on December 2, 2007, 5:50 pm
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Leafing through alt.sci.planetary, I read N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)'s
message of Sun, 2 Dec 2007:

>...
>> This leads me to propose scenarios like this: there
>> were late Earth impactors that threw up a lot of
>> mantle material, but the material coated (say 100km
>> or more in depth) a satellite that was already there.
>> I suspect such Earth mantle coating of any pre-
>> existing satellite was a likely event; and that gaining
>> a suitable pre-existing satellite (I guess by capture
>> or partial capture) requires much more easily
>> achievable constraints than the short story giant
>> impact does.
>
>This does not provide enough angular momentum to keep a
>"significantly plated" Moon in orbit, certainly not a circular
>one.

I'm unclear why you see a problem, and there is no need for the
resulting orbit to be circular, anyway. The pre-existing satellite
could easily have significantly more than the minimum angular momentum
needed to keep itself in orbit long-term (the angular momentum of a
geostationary orbit). If, say, 25% extra mass is to be added, the
requirements are not that constraining; the majority of possibilities
have the new mass adding angular momentum of its own.

> The material would have to enter the Moon's orbit, then be
>captured over some time.

It would have to pass near to the proto-Moon satellite's orbit, but
that's not an onerous requirement as its perigee need not be that high.
A captured satellite's orbit would likely be significantly eccentric,
and so could still have sufficient angular momentum even if its perigee
were lower than geostationary (and at a time when geostationary was more
like an 8-hour than 24-hour orbit).

However, I'm suggesting that my hypothesis is less constraining than
"short story" giant impact, so let's say the pre-existing satellite has
a perigee in the range 0.8 to 1.3 times geostationary, and the target is
to coat it with about 0.2% of Earth's mass. I reckon much lesser
impacts than the one needed to create a "short story" giant impact moon,
should be up to the job of sending sufficient Earth mantel material into
a suitable orbit. OK, there's still considerable handwaving in that
argument, but I hope you see where I'm coming from.
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