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Subject Author Date
IPSec / domain isolation: confusing MS documents Franz Schenk 07-20-2006
Posted by Franz Schenk on July 20, 2006, 10:56 am
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We are reserching possibilities to secure Windows 2003 Server SP1 and
Windows XP systems at a customer location with IPSec. All the domain
controllers also host other services like file and printing ressources. Have
read several papers, and whats confusing me is that according to Microsoft,
domain controllers can't be protected at all.



For example, in the Microsoft document "Interoperability Considerations for
IPsec Server and Domain Isolation", downloadable at
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=10359569-EF11-499A-9E1F-85DA3FCA608C&displaylang=en
is the following text:



"Domain controllers: An IPsec connection between a domain controller and a
domain member is currently not supported, in part because a client must
connect to a domain controller to get a Kerberos ticket and cannot use IPsec
until after it has authenticated. (Although it is possible to use IPsec
between a domain controller and a domain member when certificate
authentication is used, doing so is also not currently supported.)"



Is this statement still correct?

Can someone explain me why it is not possible to secure for example all SMB
traffic with IPSec between domain controllers and client systems?



Thank you all in advance for any help!

Franz



Posted by Miha Pihler [MVP] on July 20, 2006, 11:20 am
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Hi,

Currently this is still correct, but it looks like it will change in
Longhorn.

The reason behind this is that when client connects to DC and if you set up
the IPSec policy DC will tell the client to authenticate by e.g. Kerberos.
Client can't authenticate to DC with Kerberos since IPSec is not up ;-). So
we have chicken and an egg situation... I can't get Kerberos until I get
IPSec and I can't get IPSec since I don't have Kerberos.

The other authentication options (e.g. certificates) while they work between
client and DC -- they are currently simply not supported scenarios. One
thing that I run into when using certificates to protect client to DC is
slow logon times, boot ups etc...

What is your main reason you would like to use IPSec between client and DC?
What would you like to protect in this case?

--
Mike
Microsoft MVP - Windows Security

> We are reserching possibilities to secure Windows 2003 Server SP1 and
> Windows XP systems at a customer location with IPSec. All the domain
> controllers also host other services like file and printing ressources.
> Have read several papers, and whats confusing me is that according to
> Microsoft, domain controllers can't be protected at all.
>
>
>
> For example, in the Microsoft document "Interoperability Considerations
> for IPsec Server and Domain Isolation", downloadable at
> is the following text:
>
>
>
> "Domain controllers: An IPsec connection between a domain controller and a
> domain member is currently not supported, in part because a client must
> connect to a domain controller to get a Kerberos ticket and cannot use
> IPsec until after it has authenticated. (Although it is possible to use
> IPsec between a domain controller and a domain member when certificate
> authentication is used, doing so is also not currently supported.)"
>
>
>
> Is this statement still correct?
>
> Can someone explain me why it is not possible to secure for example all
> SMB traffic with IPSec between domain controllers and client systems?
>
>
>
> Thank you all in advance for any help!
>
> Franz
>
>



Posted by Steven L Umbach on July 20, 2006, 11:38 am
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I agree with Mike that it still is the case. The often updated KB article
below reflects that also.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/254949/

It seems that any port/protocol used in the authentication process
[including 139/445 TCP] causes a problem when you try to use in an ipsec
policy for traffic between domain clients and domain controllers. You may be
able to get ot to work for computers/users that have already authenticated
to the domain but you will run into problems at startup/logon where it never
seems to work.

Steve

> We are reserching possibilities to secure Windows 2003 Server SP1 and
> Windows XP systems at a customer location with IPSec. All the domain
> controllers also host other services like file and printing ressources.
> Have read several papers, and whats confusing me is that according to
> Microsoft, domain controllers can't be protected at all.
>
>
>
> For example, in the Microsoft document "Interoperability Considerations
> for IPsec Server and Domain Isolation", downloadable at
> is the following text:
>
>
>
> "Domain controllers: An IPsec connection between a domain controller and a
> domain member is currently not supported, in part because a client must
> connect to a domain controller to get a Kerberos ticket and cannot use
> IPsec until after it has authenticated. (Although it is possible to use
> IPsec between a domain controller and a domain member when certificate
> authentication is used, doing so is also not currently supported.)"
>
>
>
> Is this statement still correct?
>
> Can someone explain me why it is not possible to secure for example all
> SMB traffic with IPSec between domain controllers and client systems?
>
>
>
> Thank you all in advance for any help!
>
> Franz
>
>



Posted by Franz Schenk on July 24, 2006, 2:48 am
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Thank you both for your feedback! No it's clear to me that IPSec can't
protect ressources located on DC's.

On our customers location, employees often bring their own home notebooks in
the office, then attach them to the network and connect to the corpoarte
file ressources that are located on DC's with their domain user accounts.
The goal that the customer wants is that access to the corporate resources
is only possible for machines that are member of the domain. Network Access
Authentication with 802.1x is not an option, it would require new Hardware.

Thought first to enable the user/machine right "access this computer from
the network" only to domain members. But when this setting is effective on
the DC's, it wouldn't be possible to install new machines (over RIS) and
joining them to the domain.

If anyone has another idea how to protect the file server ressources on DC's
from access from unauthorized machines, I would appreciate to know, thank
you all in advance!

Franz

> We are reserching possibilities to secure Windows 2003 Server SP1 and
> Windows XP systems at a customer location with IPSec. All the domain
> controllers also host other services like file and printing ressources.
> Have read several papers, and whats confusing me is that according to
> Microsoft, domain controllers can't be protected at all.
>
>
>
> For example, in the Microsoft document "Interoperability Considerations
> for IPsec Server and Domain Isolation", downloadable at
> is the following text:
>
>
>
> "Domain controllers: An IPsec connection between a domain controller and a
> domain member is currently not supported, in part because a client must
> connect to a domain controller to get a Kerberos ticket and cannot use
> IPsec until after it has authenticated. (Although it is possible to use
> IPsec between a domain controller and a domain member when certificate
> authentication is used, doing so is also not currently supported.)"
>
>
>
> Is this statement still correct?
>
> Can someone explain me why it is not possible to secure for example all
> SMB traffic with IPSec between domain controllers and client systems?
>
>
>
> Thank you all in advance for any help!
>
> Franz
>
>



Posted by Miha Pihler [MVP] on July 24, 2006, 5:12 am
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Hi Franz,

Well in my opinion -- file resources should not be on DC in the first place.
That would solve a lot of (potential) problems... (e.g. potential virus
infection of DC with files dropped off by users).

If you have antivirus installed on your DC did you consider this:

Virus scanning recommendations for computers that are running Windows Server
2003, Windows 2000, or Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/822158/

Especially this part:
For Windows Server 2003 and Windows 2000 domain controllers

--
Mike
Microsoft MVP - Windows Security

> Thank you both for your feedback! No it's clear to me that IPSec can't
> protect ressources located on DC's.
>
> On our customers location, employees often bring their own home notebooks
> in the office, then attach them to the network and connect to the
> corpoarte file ressources that are located on DC's with their domain user
> accounts. The goal that the customer wants is that access to the corporate
> resources is only possible for machines that are member of the domain.
> Network Access Authentication with 802.1x is not an option, it would
> require new Hardware.
>
> Thought first to enable the user/machine right "access this computer from
> the network" only to domain members. But when this setting is effective on
> the DC's, it wouldn't be possible to install new machines (over RIS) and
> joining them to the domain.
>
> If anyone has another idea how to protect the file server ressources on
> DC's from access from unauthorized machines, I would appreciate to know,
> thank you all in advance!
>
> Franz
>
>> We are reserching possibilities to secure Windows 2003 Server SP1 and
>> Windows XP systems at a customer location with IPSec. All the domain
>> controllers also host other services like file and printing ressources.
>> Have read several papers, and whats confusing me is that according to
>> Microsoft, domain controllers can't be protected at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example, in the Microsoft document "Interoperability Considerations
>> for IPsec Server and Domain Isolation", downloadable at
>> is the following text:
>>
>>
>>
>> "Domain controllers: An IPsec connection between a domain controller and
>> a domain member is currently not supported, in part because a client must
>> connect to a domain controller to get a Kerberos ticket and cannot use
>> IPsec until after it has authenticated. (Although it is possible to use
>> IPsec between a domain controller and a domain member when certificate
>> authentication is used, doing so is also not currently supported.)"
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this statement still correct?
>>
>> Can someone explain me why it is not possible to secure for example all
>> SMB traffic with IPSec between domain controllers and client systems?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for any help!
>>
>> Franz
>>
>>
>
>



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