Yes; but you failed to plead a special case. Your case consisted of
nothing more than that it's possible to construct a fixed-spacing dialog
(which it isn't). You didn't produce any kind of special-case reason why
one might need to do that.

> We should just all give up with this because everyone has their own

> preference and no-one is ever going to win.

Oh, really? My view is that the argument was won a long time ago (long
before this thread started). But I'm glad you now acknowledge that the
user's preference trumps all other arguments!

--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

Posted by PTM on July 27, 2006, 3:32 pm

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> PTM wrote:

>>>

>>> I'm afraid you made a weak argument there; you could have made a

>>> stronger one, but I don't feel like arguing over these details. The

>>> principle is that the user should be in control, where GUIs are

>>> concerned; and webpages are GUIs. If a GUI designer thinks that a

>>> user shouldn't be in control, then either he has to argue against

>>> this accepted principle, or he has to make a special-case argument.

>>>

>>> I don't deny that there are special cases; but to qualify, a case

>>> has to be special.

>> I didn't make a weak argument. My initial comment was "Sometimes it's

>> preferable" emphasis on sometimes, to which you actually end up

>> agreeing, "special cases".

> Yes; but you failed to plead a special case. Your case consisted of

> nothing more than that it's possible to construct a fixed-spacing dialog

> (which it isn't). You didn't produce any kind of special-case reason why

> one might need to do that.

>> We should just all give up with this because everyone has their own

>> preference and no-one is ever going to win.

> Oh, really? My view is that the argument was won a long time ago (long

> before this thread started). But I'm glad you now acknowledge that the

> user's preference trumps all other arguments!

> --

> Jack.

> http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

I don't recall having agreed that USER preference triumphs. I do recall
saying 'everyone has their own' which does include the developer as well as
the companies and individuals they develop for.

Posted by Jack on July 27, 2006, 4:15 pm

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PTM wrote:

>>> We should just all give up with this because everyone has their

>>> own preference and no-one is ever going to win.

>> Oh, really? My view is that the argument was won a long time ago

>> (long before this thread started). But I'm glad you now acknowledge

>> that the user's preference trumps all other arguments!

[snipped my sig - how come your newsreader includes it in your quote?]

[Aaah - you don't have a newsreader :-)]

> I don't recall having agreed that USER preference triumphs. I do

> recall saying 'everyone has their own' which does include the

> developer as well as the companies and individuals they develop for.

Yeah, well I was joking (but my jokes are usually serious).

My point was meant to be that the user has already triumphed; he is in
control of his computer and his browser, most of the time, and despite
the efforts of some kinds of murketers and their lackeys.

And that's the way that most users would like it; the web is not like
TV, where the "user" either takes the content the way it is delivered,
or finds another channel. On the web, the user chooses what they are
going to see, in what order, and with which accompaniment. This is the
world that web designers have to deal with. "Accompaniment" includes
ads, video, style, and music. You can cram all of that stuff down
peoples' throats on TV, but it won't wash on the web.

The designer's "preference" is of course more than the "suggestion" that
many folks here would relegate it to. The designer's preference, as
expressed in her stylesheets, will be accepted by most users, even if it
doesn't suit them; most users don't know how to apply their own
preferences. We all know that. But it's still not a very good idea to
rely on that fact as a guiding principle for page-design. If users _can_
override the designer's "suggestions", then designers should design with
that fact in mind. Is this not obvious?
--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

Posted by Ivan Marsh on July 27, 2006, 5:24 pm

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On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:32:20 +0000, PTM wrote:

>> PTM wrote:

>>>>

>>>> I'm afraid you made a weak argument there; you could have made a

>>>> stronger one, but I don't feel like arguing over these details. The

>>>> principle is that the user should be in control, where GUIs are

>>>> concerned; and webpages are GUIs. If a GUI designer thinks that a

>>>> user shouldn't be in control, then either he has to argue against

>>>> this accepted principle, or he has to make a special-case argument.

>>>>

>>>> I don't deny that there are special cases; but to qualify, a case has

>>>> to be special.

>>>

>>> I didn't make a weak argument. My initial comment was "Sometimes it's

>>> preferable" emphasis on sometimes, to which you actually end up

>>> agreeing, "special cases".

>> Yes; but you failed to plead a special case. Your case consisted of

>> nothing more than that it's possible to construct a fixed-spacing

>> dialog (which it isn't). You didn't produce any kind of special-case

>> reason why one might need to do that.

>>> We should just all give up with this because everyone has their own

>>> preference and no-one is ever going to win.

>> Oh, really? My view is that the argument was won a long time ago (long

>> before this thread started). But I'm glad you now acknowledge that the

>> user's preference trumps all other arguments!

> I don't recall having agreed that USER preference triumphs. I do recall

> saying 'everyone has their own' which does include the developer as well

> as the companies and individuals they develop for.

Unfortunately.

One of our client companies once sent us instructions for setting up
access to one of their web application... it walked the reader through the
process of accepting ANY active-X component from ANYWHERE.

Needless to say I didn't set it up that way.

--
The USA Patriot Act is the most unpatriotic act in American history.
Feingold-Obama '08 - Because the Constitution isn't history,
It's the law.

Posted by Alan J. Flavell on July 27, 2006, 2:44 pm

Please log in for more thread options

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, PTM wrote:
[f'ups suggested. Feel free to override if you insist.]

> We should just all give up with this

With what "this"?

> because everyone has their own preference and no-one is ever going

> to win.

On the contrary: any author can win, once they have taken on board
the principles of proposing a desired visual appearance which responds
gracefully to user choices. The user also wins, which is nice.

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