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Hindi -i

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Subject Author Date
Hindi -i Harlan Messinger 01-29-2008
|--> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-29-2008
---> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-30-2008
  ---> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-30-2008
  | ---> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-30-2008
  |   ---> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-30-2008
  |     ---> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-30-2008
  |       ---> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-30-2008
  |       | ---> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-30-2008
  |       |   `--> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-30-2008
  |       `--> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-30-2008
  ---> Re: Hindi -i Harlan Messinge...01-30-2008
    `--> Re: Hindi -i Andreas Prilop01-31-2008
Posted by Harlan Messinger on January 29, 2008, 5:17 pm
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A Hindi consonant that appears without a vowel is understood to be
followed by -a. Otherwise, the following vowel (or the fact of the
consonant not being followed by a vowel) is indicated by some symbol
placed after (to the right) of the consonant, above or below it, or, in
the case of -i, to the left of it.

Evidently IE6 and Firefox want to treat the -i symbol differently. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devan%C4%81gar%C4%AB#Vowels

in both browsers. Each set of three gray columns shows a vowel in
isolation, in combining form, and as combined with the Devanagari
consonant /p/. The /pi/ combination appears in the second row on the
left, in the third column. At the moment it looks correct in IE and not
in Firefox. (It's hard to say just how the page will look when you pull
it up because someone's in the middle of massive edits right now.)

Is there any way to handle this so that the correct positioning occurs
in both browsers?

Posted by Ben C on January 29, 2008, 6:11 pm
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> A Hindi consonant that appears without a vowel is understood to be
> followed by -a. Otherwise, the following vowel (or the fact of the
> consonant not being followed by a vowel) is indicated by some symbol
> placed after (to the right) of the consonant, above or below it, or, in
> the case of -i, to the left of it.
>
> Evidently IE6 and Firefox want to treat the -i symbol differently. See
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devan%C4%81gar%C4%AB#Vowels
>
> in both browsers. Each set of three gray columns shows a vowel in
> isolation, in combining form, and as combined with the Devanagari
> consonant /p/. The /pi/ combination appears in the second row on the
> left, in the third column. At the moment it looks correct in IE and not
> in Firefox. (It's hard to say just how the page will look when you pull
> it up because someone's in the middle of massive edits right now.)
>
> Is there any way to handle this so that the correct positioning occurs
> in both browsers?

I don't have IE to look at it in, but Firefox on GNU/Linux (SUSE 10.0)
isn't doing a great job with that glyph.

I think the bit that looks rather like a scythe is meant to be on the
left, not on the right, when combined? Perhaps you can confirm if this
is correct. I can't actually read Devanagari.

It looks like Firefox isn't combining them but just drawing one glyph
next to the other.

Most of the ones on the "l" row don't look properly combined in
Firefox/Linux either.

I think to do this stuff you need OpenType font support, and the
specific feature required here may be "contextual ligatures".

Windows I think has some OpenType font support and IE on Windows may be
using it but not Firefox.

I would expect this to depend on the OS as well as on the browser as I
doubt font rendering is actually built into IE, but is likely to be a
more general service provided by Windows.

I don't think there's anything you can do except wait for more
widespread OpenType font support. Unless you just use an image of course
the way some sites do for equations. OK if it's just the odd word you
need.

Posted by JWS on January 30, 2008, 4:51 am
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Ben C wrote:

>
> I don't have IE to look at it in, but Firefox on GNU/Linux
> (SUSE 10.0) isn't doing a great job with that glyph.

Several Firefox (and Seamonkey, etc.) versions on Linux have
problems with Complex Text Layout, displaying and/or printing.
AFAIK only the Fedora versions do it right.



Posted by Harlan Messinger on January 29, 2008, 6:20 pm
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
> A Hindi consonant that appears without a vowel is understood to be
> followed by -a. Otherwise, the following vowel (or the fact of the
> consonant not being followed by a vowel) is indicated by some symbol
> placed after (to the right) of the consonant, above or below it, or, in
> the case of -i, to the left of it.
>
> Evidently IE6 and Firefox want to treat the -i symbol differently. See
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devan%C4%81gar%C4%AB#Vowels
>
> in both browsers. Each set of three gray columns shows a vowel in
> isolation, in combining form, and as combined with the Devanagari
> consonant /p/. The /pi/ combination appears in the second row on the
> left, in the third column. At the moment it looks correct in IE and not
> in Firefox. (It's hard to say just how the page will look when you pull
> it up because someone's in the middle of massive edits right now.)
>
> Is there any way to handle this so that the correct positioning occurs
> in both browsers?

Strange. When I wrote before, I was using a machine with Windows 2000.
Now, looking in IE*7* and Firefox on Windows Vista, the order is correct
in both browsers. Also, in the second column, IE6 on Windows 2000 and
both browsers on Vista are displaying a dotted circular placeholder to
show where the vowel symbols stands in relation to whatever consonant it
is to accompany. Firefox on Vista doesn't show the placeholder, and in
fact shows some of the vowel symbols not at all in the second column. So
I'm thinking in retrospect that this is more a Windows 2000 font issue,
which means that it's mostly not worth exploring since Windows 2000 is
disappearing.

Posted by Andreas Prilop on January 30, 2008, 9:56 am
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On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Harlan Messinger wrote:

> Evidently IE6 and Firefox want to treat the -i symbol differently.

First install
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/2kintlsupp.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/xpintlsupp.mspx

Then check again with
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1#nagari
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/sanskrit-alphabet

--
In memoriam Alan J. Flavell
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=author:Alan.J.Flavell

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