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Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL?

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Does Firefox not understand COLGROUP and COL? David Stone 06-06-2006
Posted by David Stone on June 7, 2006, 10:12 am
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[snip]
>
> Two standards compliant solutions: one for ie, and one for the gecko
> family - each one or two lines of code.

I guess my personal preference is for one solution that works
(reasonably well) for any of the most common browsers, but doesn't
generate errors when parsing through the W3C validator.

> There seems to be some suggestion that the bug is (finally) being worked
> on: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=915
> (and if you care, vote for it).

I care; I did. Although you have to wonder how long it will take
_after_ the problem has been fixed, before the number of pre-fix
browsers still in use drops below the significance threshold. There
are still quite a number of IE 5 installations locally, for example!

Posted by Alan Silver on June 7, 2006, 11:06 am
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>Although you have to wonder how long it will take
> _after_ the problem has been fixed, before the number of pre-fix
>browsers still in use drops below the significance threshold. There
>are still quite a number of IE 5 installations locally, for example!

Yeah, but the FF situation is notably different for two reasons. First,
FF users tend to be far more technosavvy than IE users, and so are far
more likely to upgrade. Second, IE (to my amazement) doesn't encourage
the user to upgrade at all. FF has quite an arrogant attitude to this
and will nag you incessantly when a new version is available. Put both
of these together and you find that FF users are far more likely to be
using the latest (or a very recent) version than IE users.

Ta ra

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

Posted by Alan J. Flavell on June 7, 2006, 9:52 am
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:

>
> > Not quite true. Since Mozilla-based browsers understand enough of
> > CSS2, you can do this via a stylesheet, as was recently discussed
> > http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.html/browse_thread/thread/e4b2a487ec8e02b
> > 4
>
> I looked at that. It's a bit more work than I care for with my
> particular table instance.

Seems quite a modest amount of work.

> Curiously enough, the background colour of a COLGROUP is one of the
> things that has supposedly been fixed, at least for the current
> build. (Well, as near as I can understand what bugzilla seems to be
> saying: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4510)

But that's easy to fix: it only needs for the background colour to be
established on the col or colgroup element, and then allowed to "shine
through" all the elements (tr, td, whatever) which come later. And
that's their natural inclination, if their b.g colour is not
explicitly styled.

Whereas, getting HTML attributes of col and colgroup to percolate down
to the cells calls for some kind of action at a distance, and the
specification is very much at odds with the concepts of CSS, so you
have two different languages trying to pull in different directions.
It's frankly a mess, and I have some sympathy with the implementers
here.

> > > The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> > > I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P
> >
> > Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying
> > on browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
> > specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover
> > the field.
>
> I don't see how I'm "relying on browser bugs"?

I don't see how I was suggesting that you *were*. You were talking
about blowing some *future* raspberry at the specifications, and I was
cautioning against the consequences of doing that.

ttfn

Posted by David Stone on June 7, 2006, 10:04 am
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> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, David Stone wrote:
>
> > > > The next time someone tells me I should be standards-compliant,
> > > > I think I shall just blow a big fat raspberry at them :P
> > >
> > > Nevertheless, it doesn't pay off in the long-term to keep relying
> > > on browser bugs. In this case, you just need two sets of
> > > specification-conforming settings, and you'll pretty much cover
> > > the field.
> >
> > I don't see how I'm "relying on browser bugs"?
>
> I don't see how I was suggesting that you *were*. You were talking
> about blowing some *future* raspberry at the specifications, and I was
> cautioning against the consequences of doing that.

Well, that's how I interpreted your first sentence in the paragraph
cited above. Not to worry! And, I fully intend to blow big fat
raspberries, not at the standards, but at those who insist that
$BROWSER_DU_JOUR should be used because it's "fully standards compliant"
- I'll consign that to the same folklore bin as "you should never use
tables"!

Posted by Henri Sivonen on June 7, 2006, 3:47 am
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>
> > Been trying to specify text alignment within specific
> > columns in an html 4 strict page. According to the
> > w3c specs,
>
> Never mind - after poking around the bugzilla pages, it appears
> to be the case that NONE of the Mozilla-based browsers implement
> COLGROUP and COL as per html 4.01 specs. Given that the problems
> I enountered were raised in a bug report several years ago, and are
> still not fixed, I'm going to assume that they likely never will be.

A reasonable assumption.

> This is one of the things where IE follows the standard, and
> Mozilla/Firefox/etc don't.

The spec is unsound at that point.

--
Henri Sivonen
hsivonen@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html

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