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An unobtrusive partial alternative to CAPCHA

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An unobtrusive partial alternative to CAPCHA Ben Bacarisse 05-08-2008
Posted by Jerry Stuckle on May 9, 2008, 1:32 pm
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Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben Bacarisse
>>>
>>>> A while back I suggested a method of using timestamps to filter out at
>>>> least some automatic form postings.
> <snip>
>>> You could enhance it by placing the time into a db,
> <snip>
>> Or, better yet, in the session.
>
> See my reply to Adrienne Boswell. I don't think you gain much by
> using session data. There is no reason not to store the data in the
> session, but given the checks I make, I don't think it adds much.
>

Just one more layer of security - it isn't in the web page.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================


Posted by Chuck Anderson on May 9, 2008, 7:04 pm
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Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben Bacarisse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A while back I suggested a method of using timestamps to filter out at
>>>>> least some automatic form postings.
>>>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> You could enhance it by placing the time into a db,
>>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Or, better yet, in the session.
>>>
>> See my reply to Adrienne Boswell. I don't think you gain much by
>> using session data. There is no reason not to store the data in the
>> session, but given the checks I make, I don't think it adds much.
>>
>>
>
> Just one more layer of security - it isn't in the web page.
>
>

With any use of sessions I always have to wonder; what about people who
have cookies disabled?

Do you insist they enable cookies, or go with the flawed trans_sid method?

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man.
***********************************


Posted by Jerry Stuckle on May 9, 2008, 8:46 pm
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Chuck Anderson wrote:
> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben Bacarisse
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A while back I suggested a method of using timestamps to filter
>>>>>> out at
>>>>>> least some automatic form postings.
>>>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> You could enhance it by placing the time into a db,
>>>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Or, better yet, in the session.
>>>>
>>> See my reply to Adrienne Boswell. I don't think you gain much by
>>> using session data. There is no reason not to store the data in the
>>> session, but given the checks I make, I don't think it adds much.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just one more layer of security - it isn't in the web page.
>>
>>
>
> With any use of sessions I always have to wonder; what about people who
> have cookies disabled?
>
> Do you insist they enable cookies, or go with the flawed trans_sid method?
>

PHP will handle the session id through a get parameter. Others do
similarly.

But then, people who surf with cookies disabled are uses to sites which
don't work.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================


Posted by Ben Bacarisse on May 9, 2008, 1:18 pm
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> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben Bacarisse
>
>> A while back I suggested a method of using timestamps to filter out at
>> least some automatic form postings.
<snip>
>> Briefly, the current time is encoded in a hidden form field when the
>> page containing it is served. The script that processes the form
>> checks the (new) current time against that in the form and rejects the
>> submission if it is either too fast or too slow.
<snip>
>> Of course, the time stamp must be protected so that tampering could be
>> detected, although no examples of altered or missing timestamps showed
>> up in this test (which it hardly surprising, why would a bot alter
>> some mysterious hidden field?).
<snip>
> You could enhance it by placing the time into a db, and upon submission,
> compare the value in the db. Generate a unique identifier as a hidden
> field, and compare that to the one in the db with the time
> submitted.

I am not sure that would add anything. Currently, the server sets the
hidden field to:

time + ":" + md5(time + "some secret string")

When the form comes back, the server splits the string at the ":" and
it computes md5(part-before-the-colon + "some secret string").
Checking that this md5 hash matches the part after the colon is
equivalent, I think, to looking up a unique ID in a server-side DB
(but simpler to do).

--
Ben.

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